Koch funded climate skeptics confirm global warming

[JNewell]

Your etiquette is atrocious. PBJ is never served with a rant that pours gas on the fire of the ongoing thread discussion. It is to be served with an invitation to calm down and talk about something more important: peanut butter or knives.

...and very, very, very seldom served in the off-topic forum. :p

[JNewell]

With all due respect, perhaps your etiquette is atrocious for pointing out my etiquette is atrocious. :rolleyes: I have not been arrogant, rude, or shown in any manner to be "uncalm". That being said I will gladly and Thankfully accept your invitation to talk about more important things. The weather was beautiful here today and I'm in the company of good folks who share common interests. I apologize if you were offended. Now on to more important things......knives :)

Ahem...this is the off-topic forum...knives, at least Spyderco knives, go elsewhere here...

[dbcad]

I often enjoy crunchy peanut butter with strawberry preserves and a thin layer of cream cheese. Really good. :D The PB w banana and honey is also a favorite. The weather and climate change every day. My guess is as good as any "scientist" as to what the weather will be 10 years from now. We might not even be here 10 years from now?? Hurricane predictors have given up because they are wrong more than right. Is another tax gonna prevent global warming? For those that believe in global warming donate to the cause or do whatever you think will help the situation. Please don't attempt to force "theories" or costs associated to this on others. There have been 6 "green" companies go bankrupt costing the taxpayer billions of dollars in recent times (Solyndra 535 million). Political cronyism and payoffs. Personally I do all I can to conserve resources and be environmentally friendly. I compost, recycle, have a solar water heater and drive fuel effecient cars. I hunt and fish often so I know and appreciate the importance of our environment. Weather is being used as a political tool.

None of these thoughts address the science behind the issue. No theories are being forced, they are being accepted by the scientific community. This is well documented.

[Sequimite]

With all due respect, perhaps your etiquette is atrocious for pointing out my etiquette is atrocious. :rolleyes: I have not been arrogant, rude, or shown in any manner to be "uncalm". That being said I will gladly and Thankfully accept your invitation to talk about more important things. The weather was beautiful here today and I'm in the company of good folks who share common interests. I apologize if you were offended. Now on to more important things......knives :)

Hah, I was making a joke and now I'm not sure if you took it the way I intended and are joking right back or if you didn't . . .

So now I'm in the same position you were or not.

Lets not let this spiral, it's already too complicated.

[Tdog]

I find it ironic and demeaning to all on the forum, that we would argue a subject of which, none can prove, and yet be so certain of. All of our days are numbered. Perhaps we would be better served to discuss that which unites, rather than divides us. Would that be off-topic or general discussion? It's all good :p

[dbcad]

I find it ironic and demeaning to all on the forum, that we would argue a subject of which, none can prove, and yet be so certain of. All of our days are numbered. Perhaps we would be better served to discuss that which unites, rather than divides us. Would that be off-topic or general discussion? It's all good :p

I believe it's a good thing that we can discuss the issue and the reasons for our opinions :) This discussion is in no way demeaning to the forum and I fail to see the irony.

A vast majority of the scientific community see climate change coming. Having been trained in the sciences I am confident that a great majority of scientific professionals have no political ax to grind, rather they seek to explain the data they have in the simplest, most logical and provable way possible. A scientists real joy is in the understanding of said data :) and the enlightenment that can from from unbiased logic.

The political nature the climate subject has taken on is destructive and serves only to hinder some individuals from seeing what unbiased evidience is pointing towards.

Nobody is better or worse for their beliefs. As long as we are confident of the reason for those opinions :)

Personally, I trust the science and am very comfortable with the basis of my opinion :)

[Tdog]

Perhaps we should consider the subject line of the thread? It is not about "global warming" now known as "climate change". It is about the politicization of the "science" of "global warming" aka "climate change" Can scientists prove what the temperature of the earth will be in 2022? Perhaps they could better prove the temperature in 2122 or 3122? There are many external factors affecting our climate of which we have no control. Can any scientist offer with certainty, solutions to create the "perfect" climate? What is the "perfect" climate? While we may theorize or predict what the future will bring, there is no proof in science or fact. The earth may become a cinder today, or it may freeze over tomorrow. Of this we cannot be sure.

We can say with certainty, that climate change does exist. It has occurred since the beginning of time. Mankind in our "wisdom" have promoted it to a political agenda. Being somewhat simple minded, I just prefer to love each day as though there were no tomorrow. :) And be Thankful for the good things in my life.

[rosconey]

syracuse is going tropical-

no snow on the ground and its almost February :eek:

lots of rain so we wont have water issues :D

higher than normal temps :confused:

[MIL-DOT]

A vast majority of the scientific community see climate change coming.

And a very large number of fully qualified and competent scientists believe the evidence for man-made climate change is largely nonsense, ultimately with political goals rather than scientific ones, and these voices are alarmingly under-publicised, and have actually been subject to numerous types of intimidation for going against the "common consensus".
I believe the entire "climate change" issue is much like "gun control", meaning it's less about "guns", than it is "control".

[dbcad]

And a very large number of fully qualified and competent scientists believe the evidence for man-made climate change is largely nonsense, ultimately with political goals rather than scientific ones, and these voices are alarmingly under-publicised, and have actually been subject to numerous types of intimidation for going against the "common consensus".
I believe the entire "climate change" issue is much like "gun control", meaning it's less about "guns", than it is "control".

Have to disagree on this point. To continue the discussion/debate in a meaningful way on that tone would entail a tally of climate science professionals, their studies and credentials. It's the weekend, I'm not working :rolleyes:

My opinions come from being informed from reliable sources on a daily basis, no TV news of any persuasion. Rather respected periodicals and news outlets leaning both left and right, also from the unprecedented melting of the artic ice cap and very long lived glaciers. The pace at which it is happening is very, very fast in a geological time frame.

I trust the science that supports the theory of climate change, mud and ice cores that give scientists a pretty good idea of climate history. Given the current facts a conspiracy theory on the left doesn't seem likely :)

From TDog: Perhaps we should consider the subject line of the thread? It is not about "global warming" now known as "climate change". It is about the politicization of the "science" of "global warming" aka "climate change" Can scientists prove what the temperature of the earth will be in 2022? Perhaps they could better prove the temperature in 2122 or 3122? There are many external factors affecting our climate of which we have no control. Can any scientist offer with certainty, solutions to create the "perfect" climate? What is the "perfect" climate? While we may theorize or predict what the future will bring, there is no proof in science or fact. The earth may become a cinder today, or it may freeze over tomorrow. Of this we cannot be sure.

We can say with certainty, that climate change does exist. It has occurred since the beginning of time. Mankind in our "wisdom" have promoted it to a political agenda. Being somewhat simple minded, I just prefer to love each day as though there were no tomorrow. And be Thankful for the good things in my life.

Different people call things different names. I readily acceded to Sequimite's objection to the way I portrayed the term "global warming" :) He understands the science, just calls it something different. I don't like the term because it's politically divisive after Al Gore's crusade to raise awareness.

We (mankind) have yet to prove this theory, yet Darwin's theory of evolution is now still unproven. However, we can all see which way the evidence points :)

Remaining politically neutral is the best way to evaluate and understand what is really going on. I see the evidence, digest and sort the information I deem to be reputable. It's pretty much all we can do :)

[Monocrom]

The problem is that Bolster doesn't believe in Global Warming so until there is agreement that there is Global Warming there is no point in debating what the causes are.

So you want folks to first of all agree that Global Warming is real before you'll even debate the issue??

I have a better idea . . . Let's first debate if it's even real. Seems a bit coincidental that the older leaders of the Global Warming movement were, back the 1970s, screaming about the exact opposite, and warning of a new coming Ice Age. Then they disappeared for about a decade or so, and came back screaming about Global Warming. Then, in the past two years or so with some of the coldest Winters on record, they claimed that was an indication that they're right about Global Warming! Huh?!

When that line didn't work, they decided to now start screaming about Climate Change. It's no longer the Global Warming movement being promoted. So perhaps a new topic actually is in order. Few bought the lie of the coming 2nd Ice Age. More folks believed the lie of Global Warming. But mother nature refused to cooperate. But if you call it Climate Change, since it's all-inclusive, all weather patterns can now seamlessly be blended into the lie.

If the facts don't support the theory, a real scientist will change his mind. Individuals with an agenda to push will simply change the theory just enough to make it look as though a pesky thing known as Reality now fits with the theory. You can't shove a square peg into a round hole. (No matter how much one believes that the square peg is supposed to fit into the round hole.) But you can take a knife, shave off four sides of the square peg so that it's somewhat round, and then force that through the hole while claiming it was supposed to fit all along. Only trouble is, those of us with common sense (and good eyesight) can see the shavings on the floor.

[ChrisR]

For me this boils down to the understanding of the peer-review system. There are millions of scientists in the world - some good, some bad, some with relevant qualifications, some without ... some with axes to grind, others without. Some are paid by reputable academic institutions, while others sell their soul to corporate interests. But when scientists talk about "truth" they mean the accepted facts that have been reviewed, tested and debated in public by qualified experts ... not pseudo-babble that sounds plausible and conveniently lets some of the biggest polluters in the world off the hook :rolleyes:

Personally I have no doubt that global climate change is happening ... just look at the speed with which glaciers & ice sheets are retreating. Also, anyone who spends time watching wildlife can testify that migrations are all wrong - species arriving too early or too late, year after year ... and it is getting more and more frequent.

Also, as the planet warms our weather won't just get warmer - it will get more violent. This means that we will get hotter, colder, wetter & drier years more and more frequently ... exactly the pattern that has been showing over the last 20-30 years.

Whether it is caused by humans is debatable but I'm guessing it is because the bulk of qualified climate researchers agree that it is most likely - we create more CO2 yearly than any other effect on the planet (animal or geological) put together.

[dbcad]

So you want folks to first of all agree that Global Warming is real before you'll even debate the issue??

I have a better idea . . . Let's first debate if it's even real. Seems a bit coincidental that the older leaders of the Global Warming movement were, back the 1970s, screaming about the exact opposite, and warning of a new coming Ice Age. Then they disappeared for about a decade or so, and came back screaming about Global Warming. Then, in the past two years or so with some of the coldest Winters on record, they claimed that was an indication that they're right about Global Warming! Huh?!

When that line didn't work, they decided to now start screaming about Climate Change. It's no longer the Global Warming movement being promoted. So perhaps a new topic actually is in order. Few bought the lie of the coming 2nd Ice Age. More folks believed the lie of Global Warming. But mother nature refused to cooperate. But if you call it Climate Change, since it's all-inclusive, all weather patterns can now seamlessly be blended into the lie.

If the facts don't support the theory, a real scientist will change his mind. Individuals with an agenda to push will simply change the theory just enough to make it look as though a pesky thing known as Reality now fits with the theory. You can't shove a square peg into a round hole. (No matter how much one believes that the square peg is supposed to fit into the round hole.) But you can take a knife, shave off four sides of the square peg so that it's somewhat round, and then force that through the hole while claiming it was supposed to fit all along. Only trouble is, those of us with common sense (and good eyesight) can see the shavings on the floor.

All I can say is look at the long term objective evidence. The political nature this issue has developed is destructive to honest dialogue and discussion.

Some knowledge of mathematics, to understand the time frames, and appreciation of what science is, is necesary to understanding the evidence. Political leaning one way or the other undermines the debate. The discussion should be about facts.

Sorry if it seems I'm hijacking your thread Sequimite :o I have a strong opinion on climate change due to greenhouse gasses.

[SolidState]

The people who think climate science is still out and that there are legit scientists debunking climate change are the same people who believe that there are legit scientists out there proving creationism over evolution.

They will always want to debate, and always turn aggressive at the first sign of scientific fact gathering or presentation... because that's not what they're interested in.

[The Deacon]

The people who think climate science is still out and that there are legit scientists debunking climate change are the same people who believe that there are legit scientists out there proving creationism over evolution.

They will always want to debate, and always turn aggressive at the first sign of scientific fact gathering or presentation... because that's not what they're interested in.

I resent that. I think "creation science" is pure BS. On the other hand I have serious doubts that humans are the primary cause of the current trend in a climate that everyone acknowledges has been changing for as long as the earth has existed. I suspect that there are some out there who believe in both creationism and man-made global warming.

Beyond that, I think that the whole issue is moot. It does not matter whether we believe the climate is changing. It does not matter whether we believe the general trend that change is toward a warmer earth. It does not matter whether we believe that human activity is the primary cause of that change. Whatever is happening will happen and the cause is irrelevant because, human nature being what it is, even if we as a species are to blame we will not do anything to slow, much less reverse it.

We who have comfort will not willingly relinquish more that a token amount of it. Those struggling to attain comfort will not willingly remain cold, hot, hungry, or otherwise deprived. Most importantly of all, we will continue to live under the delusion that someone will find a way to allow the planet to support more and more of us. Sex drive, validated by religious injunctions to "go forth and multiply" will win out over the fact that the only way to significantly reduce man's impact on the planet is to significantly reduce our numbers. Anyone who suggests otherwise will be labeled a racist, compared to Hitler, and worse. A prime example is the way China gets vilified, rather than praised, for their "one child" policy.

[Sequimite]

So you want folks to first of all agree that Global Warming is real before you'll even debate the issue??

I have a better idea . . . Let's first debate if it's even real.

That's exactly what I wrote. It was suggested that a more fruitful debate would be over human contribution to global warming and I replied that I couldn't have that debate with Bolster until we had finished debating whether global warming was occurring. I as guilty as anyone of skimming through a post, but if you reread you'll find that what you are suggesting is exactly what I was suggesting.

[JNewell]

Wait, time out/recap - are there folks saying that climate change is not happening? For example, denying that the polar ice caps are melting? I'm not talking about causes, just observable facts - are these not observeable facts?

[NYRich]

I'll be six feet under or a pile of ashes before it's proven, but some recent findings should be setting off alarm bells.

Last night CBS had a piece on a newly discovered stream in Antarctica. Flowing water that nobody has yet traced to its source. Is it coming from a spring deep under the ice cap or is it melted ice?

The only certainty is that we need to figure things out before they reach the point of no return.

[dbcad]

Glad the discussion continues :)

What makes my opinion so strong is the rate at which change is occuring without a significant natural catastrophe pushing it.

[jtoler_9]

This was a long thread and I need a life. I still don't think I have an opinion yet. :confused:
I do know that there is a movie coming out where some whales are trapped underneath a bunch of Ice. If only there was a way to melt all the ice to save all those whales. Plus ice is so cold. I'm surprised you didn't know that.