what's the problem s35vn ?

SpydieKnut · #41

What a lot of people are forgetting is that there's a lot more to a knife than the type of steel or hardness. These will make a big difference on how easy/hard they are to sharpen, and sure there are some great "super steels' like CPM M4 or ZDP where the difference is clear. However, you have to bear in mind other variant factors:
- edge angle
- edge geometry (flat or convex)
- thickness of blade
- blade profile (hollow ground, convex, flat or chisel)
- blade shape (recurve, upsewpt, tanto etc).
All these factors will have as much if not more of an effect on a knife's cutting ability than the type of steel used.

So unless you manage to get two identical blades in the different steels (ie Mules), and test them side by side, these discussions are only a matter of opinion or "feel". Or worst yet, people repeating what others have said on the net without ever even holding one of these let alone trying.

JNewell · #42

Agree with most of what you wrote. I do trust Chris Reeve, the same way I trust Sal or Eric Glesser or other people of that stature. Having said that, I don't think Chris Reeve is a steelhead but rather a (hmmm) knifehead. He seems, to me, to be more concerned about overall usefulness and performance than about pure edge retention or other single-performance measures. I could be wrong about that, though. :)

c.joe wrote:It seems that bladeforum's solution is to raise the rockwell of s35vn to make up for its softness and rolling over. I have not personally experienced any any of this on my s35vn Sebbies but apparently people are rolling over, over simple rope.

I sent Heather an email asking about her opinions to see if they are aware of these problems or if they have any future plans. Here's what I got back.

To be very honest, Reeve is a hardheaded perfectionist & steel snob. He will talk steel with you for hours at any show he attends. From what I understand, if he can improve his product by 0.01%, he will jump on that opportunity.That's where s35vn comes in. Not sure what to say here, but as of now I trust Chris with his products and have to experience it myself. Not too sure about Spyderco's s35vn.

MIL-DOT · #43

Since I just recieved a native 5 a few days ago, I've been reading this thread with interest. I found this related thread on Bladeforums.....
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... cteristics
....which includes numerous posts from the guy that did the You-Tube test that the OP posted. The tester seemed to really like the knife, right up until he didn't. But, though I'm admitedly no expert at all, it seemed to be that the "roll", "damage" or "flat-spot" he was pointing out, was little more than a discoloration. To my eye,there was almost nothing there. I had expected something much more severe after hearing his description and condemnation of s35vn.
I was happy to read the CS has a very customer-freindly return policy,should I feel it's warranted, but I'm going to do some more research before I panic :D .

bchan · #44

Not trying to stir up a flame war, and I'm not a steel expert by any means, I tend to rely on people such as Sal or Chris whose integrity I have no reason to doubt. On the other hand there are opposing views expressed in another thread by other respected members of the forum, in pretty definite language:

Ankerson wrote:There isn't any conspiracy at all, Crucible has been straight forward from the beginning about S35VN and it's all on their data sheet.

Now S35VN has been hyped up by certian manufactures to be more than it really is to sell knives and people are buying into that HYPE.

Ankerson wrote:Someone is delusional if that's what they are saying.

Slightly better toughness, yeah maybe, Crucible says that.

Edge retention? Not happening in this world if both are at the same HRC based on my testing and CATRA.

To the layman, it's pretty confusing. In future if someone can do a real-life testing/comparison of the steels it would be helpful.

chuck_roxas45 · #45

Would you say the N5 and the FRN native have similar blade geometry? Hmmm

Slash · #46

I'll be happy to test any knife that contains s35vn on various materials and post my unbiased options with video results as per request. Just pm me and I'll provide my address where you can send the knife in question. BTW, this is not an attempt to get a free knife. I have plenty of high end blades at my disposal.

CrimsonTideShooter · #47

Hey guys. I'm the anonymous amateur that is doing the testing. I have no beef with the steel. It's the claims that it is on par with or surpasses S30V in terms of edge retention that bother me.

Kershaw is being kind enough to send me a brand new ZT 0550 in S35VN to test. That should give us another good data point.

I may not be a knife maker, but to suggest that I can't know as much as them is ridiculous at best. Having a title doesn't make any one person more knowledgeable than the next guy. Knife makers spend most of their time running a business. I spend the lions share of my time learning and testing. I am very confident that the steel at the current hardness (in my samples) is not adequate. Steel like 420HC shouldn't hold it's edge longer than S35VN, no matter how you rationalize it.

Anyway, I just figured I'd chime in. I don't expect any of you to go along with what I'm saying. I'm quite used to having people discredit me for one reason or another, but it doesn't change the results.

I have tested 19 knives in all different steels previously to the two knives in S35VN (Seb and Native). None of them suffered significant damage at all, then two different knives from two different manufacturers in the same steel failed in the exact same way back to back. Take that for what it's worth.

Slash · #48

^s35vn doesn't like your brand of rope. Try carving a 2x4 and some other materials. Cardboard, hardwoods like oak, maple, applewood, etc...

CrimsonTideShooter · #49

Slash wrote:^s35vn doesn't like your brand of rope. Try carving a 2x4 and some other materials. Cardboard, hardwoods like oak, maple, applewood, etc...

Is that a serious reply? S35VN "doesn't like my brand of rope?"

So it's more likely that the rope is to blame now instead of the steel? You mean the same rope I've used for my other cut tests?

I can't change the test medium. I'd have no consistency at all if I did that. All the other steels have handled it just fine. 420HC, VG-10, S30V, S90V, 154CM, CTS-XHP, CPM M4, ZDP-189, AUS8a, VANAX75, ELMAX, D2...

All of those steels fared just fine. Then two different knives in S35VN failed back to back in the exact same way? Come on. You can't really rationalize that into some kind of coincidence.

Ankerson · #50

bchan wrote:Not trying to stir up a flame war, and I'm not a steel expert by any means, I tend to rely on people such as Sal or Chris whose integrity I have no reason to doubt. On the other hand there are opposing views expressed in another thread by other respected members of the forum, in pretty definite language:

To the layman, it's pretty confusing. In future if someone can do a real-life testing/comparison of the steels it would be helpful.

I tested it in 2 Mules and it performed comparable to S30V edge retention wise, didn't notice any rolling on either Mule.

It is different than S30V though, not as aggressive and it does sharpen easier from what I have seen.

Slash · #51

Actually it was a very serious reply as my daily cutting tasks don't ever require me to cut rope. So, perhaps I could care less how the steel fairs vrs. rope. If infact I did need to cut rope, then I would most likely use a serrated salt blade since most rope is around water and boats. I would also like to see how it does at field dreesing some wild game as well...real world tests if you will.

CrimsonTideShooter · #52

Slash wrote:Actually it was a very serious reply as my daily cutting tasks don't ever require me to cut rope. So, perhaps I could care less how the steel fairs vrs. rope. If infact I did need to cut rope, then I would most likely use a serrated salt blade since most rope is around water and boats. I would also like to see how it does at field dreesing some wild game as well...real world tests if you will.

I don't think you quite understand the purpose of rope as a test medium. I am testing knives on video. I have a short amount of time to do the test.

I can't cut cardboard for hours until the edge is dulled.

Rope is very hard on an edge. It will sufficiently dull an edge in time enough for me to record it, and also unlike cardboard it is a very repeatable and consistent medium. Open your mind and you might actually gain some knowledge.

Rope is widely accepted as a test medium for knife edges. It's not like I'm subjecting the knife to abuse.

Ever heard that saying, when you're blowing your own horn you can't hear the rest of the band?

Ankerson · #53

Slash wrote:Actually it was a very serious reply as my daily cutting tasks don't ever require me to cut rope. So, perhaps I could care less how the steel fairs vrs. rope. If infact I did need to cut rope, then I would most likely use a serrated salt blade since most rope is around water and boats. I would also like to see how it does at field dreesing some wild game as well...real world test if you will.

Manila Rope is excellent as a test medium because it's not easy to cut and it's very abrasive.

It can tell you a lot about what is going on with a blade, steel, edge finish, edge geometry and blade geometry.

Plus if it will cut rope well it will also cut other things well also.

Slash · #54

Ok, leave the blade toothy then and see what happens. As in field sharpened...

chuck_roxas45 · #55

Slash wrote:Actually it was a very serious reply as my daily cutting tasks don't ever require me to cut rope. So, perhaps I could care less how the steel fairs vrs. rope. If infact I did need to cut rope, then I would most likely use a serrated salt blade since most rope is around water and boats. I would also like to see how it does at field dreesing some wild game as well...real world tests if you will.

Are you saying CATRA tests aren't valid because they cut silica impregnated paper and "real life" use doesn't include cutting silica impregnated paper?

As a wannabe steel head, I am interested in what steels can do what they can't. Based on what I find out in my search for "steel head knowledge" is what I use in my "real life" carry. So dismissing a "test" out of hand just because it doesn't coincide with your uses may fly for you. And let's not go into "agendas".

Ankerson · #56

Slash wrote:Ok, leave the blade toothy then and see what happens. As in field sharpened...

Not that simple... Things never really are.

If the edge is too coarse it will tend to hang instead of slice requiring more pressure to slice through the rope. Higher pressure is not good for edge stability and edge retention.

If the edge is too fine it will slide right across the rope and not even cut it, same issue as above.

From my testing something in the 14-16 Micron range is optimal.

That also carries over into real world use.....

Slash · #57

Exactly my point. There are way to many factors that determine what's a good steel for one person may not be a good steel to another. Personally any stainless that thinks it's a carbon is a good steel in my book.

chuck_roxas45 · #58

The fact remains that two knives with the same steel failed the same way for one person. Knife and steel knowledge doesn't just come from a fountainhead, it comes from the totality of experience of a lot of users. Let's not dismiss CTS's experience out of hand unless you have a specific objection to his method. Let's keep our minds open and it will be the ELU who will benefit.

I have no dog in this fight, I am only for steel knowledge here. Oh and faith(belief without proof) often gets in the way of facts. So I'm keeping an open mind here.

Blerv · #59

bchan wrote:To the layman, it's pretty confusing. In future if someone can do a real-life testing/comparison of the steels it would be helpful.

To the layman snobby steels aren't a topic. All will take and hold a nice edge and they won't rust up. It's not that the average consumer should get a lesser product (I am one), it's just they won't notice especially in a blind comparison.

Even AUS8 if well done and ground thick is a nice steel. Thin it out and cut a dozen cardboard boxes and you will find it lacking.

5.56 · #60

Maybe S35VN should be compared to VG-10 since it's not quite measuring up to S30V. :eek: :D

^^ I kid, I kid
I'll bet a couple of you came unglued for a second though.