Is a Valloton a flick knife????? Australian Customs

[6leafdom]

My emerson cqc10 got classified as a "flick" knife too by the canadian custom....wtf?

[angusW]

sharpkunt, I'm really feeling your pain man. The absurdity of thinking a ~$200 knife is going to be purchased by some punk to poke people with just blows my mind. Sometimes life just doesn't make sense.

I would definitely keep calling, ask for the supervisor. Do not back down. Make a call to your MP as well and let him know how you are an upstanding citizen. Make it known to him the absurdity of this law. You may not get your knife back but just letting it slide is not the answer. If enough people get informed and have their voice heard then things can change, just not quickly. Sitting back and doing nothing will do just that. Do nothing. In fact they will just take your rights even more.

It's not that bad here in Canada but I ask the seller to tighten the pivot or put a small piece of plastic from a clamshell package in the pivot if it's a bushing like on a Manix 2.

[WalzAaronFFG]

I wouldn't give up. I would kindly explain that you understand their position, but it is wrong. By taking the knife they are hurting you financially (weather or not its true I would phrase it that way) and then make your case as to why it is not what they think it is. Record the call.

A gravity knife
A Butterfly knife
A Automatic knife
A assisted open knife

In no way does your knife fit into the class of these "dangerous weapons" and the knife is a collectible meant for a glass display case.

It would be interesting if you could make a blog for angry citizens in similar situations. A place to post the call you recorded earlier :cool:

Again, sorry for your loss.

[DiKa]

Some dealers will tighten a pivot screw before shipping knives. If you can find a dealer who will do it, I think this will help you with customs.

According to the deaer I buy most of my knives from :rolleyes: , all the knives from Spyderco's factory come in tight. The thing is, once it's a spyderco (which is we all love), it will always be a knife being able to be opened with one hand. So once it is, its not legal in a lot of places.

[MCM]

I have buddy down under I have traded with for yrs., and always tighten the pivot prior to shipping.
Work's every time.
Might try that next time. :cool:

[dem0n1k]

i echo the au sentiments in this thread. it sucks but you are taking on a huge burden if you want to go up against au customs. i went through exactly the same thing & after much communications with au customs decided it wasn't even worth getting them to return the knives to the states AT MY OWN COST. au customs just put so much red tape & hoops in place that such a thing becomes more trouble than it is worth.

my last effort was the killer for me. i ordered a spyderco dragonfly ss tattoo from a USA ebay seller.. it was delayed in au customs for 4 weeks before they released it to me. the spyderco box was torn in half, the inner plastics & bubble wrap were missing & the protective plastic that spyderco put over the lovely ss etching was removed. it was at this point i decided to not try & import any more knives. i will still have a humble collection & always be on the look-out for decent blades within australia... but sadly no more imports.

it's a real bummer coz i wanted one of those sweeeet vallottons as well!!

[MCM]

I am still here for ya! LOL LOL

MCM

[ozspyder]

that blows, ask Dan about this, he has had lots of experience with the AU customs.


edit: this is Dan's old screen name, i forgot what the new one is.

LOL That's me :D

Yes I've had lots of dealings with them and lost a few to their idiotic and mostly random selection of seizures !

Basically if they can use one hand to open the knife in a single motion : whether it be with the aid of a hole, thumbstud, cobra hood or flipper then they will classify it as a flick or centrifugal opening knife
It doest have to be a spring assisted automatic knife to be seized. It's a bloody chook raffle at the best of times.

In my last conversation with Canberra they say that seizures on pocket knives amount to about 90% of imports but most are the cheap s@@@ variety. They don't differentiate between $20 knives or $500 knives. But I bet they are opening a lot of packages with my Spyker !!!

I have a Prohibited Weapons Permit which I applied for after my first seizure. But.... some knives that they've let into the country in the past have more recently been seized ???? It codices me because now you almost have to fill in paperwork for every bloody thing because the frontline inspectors can deem it OK or not OK.

I would call them again and challenge that the Valloton be sent to their supervisors at ACS in Canberra for further testing and classification. I got one of my knives reversed in classification because Canberra decided the inspector was wrong on the Caly 3.5 :p . The Phoenix is sadly CRUSHED !!!!

Best of luck. I now have a migraine from dredging up that dirty word ..... Customs.... NFI sadly. But they assure us the process for importation of pocket knives in the next yer or so will be revamped. Let's see if it makes it any less problematic, methinks buy from local source is better risk and for special knives go apply for a PW Permit.

[razorsharp]

The Phoenix is sadly CRUSHED !!!!

:eek: WHAT!!!!

[ozspyder]

Yes
I've brought in lots and they've let through most. Recently their interpretation changed but the wording of the legislation hasn't. Go bloody figure !!! Arguing/ debating with them is nonsensical

[razorsharp]

man, the one they happen to not let in just so happens to be one of the most expensive spydercos :eek: :mad: .....I hope NZ doesnt follow, there is not much knife crime but I bet someone will get attacked by some *___insert word___* and as soon as it goes on air, it will be used by politicians as something to make it look like they're doing something useful!! :mad:

[sharpkunt]

Hi thanks for the tip, which online store do you purchase your knives from and which courer company do you use??

[mickay]

HI

You have a RIGHT to Compensation for property seized under these suspect circumstances see below;

CUSTOMS ACT 1901 - SECT 4AB
Compensation for acquisition of property
(1) If:
(a) this Act would result in an acquisition of property; and
(b) any provision of this Act would not be valid, apart from this section, because a particular person has not been compensated;
the Commonwealth must pay that person:
(c) a reasonable amount of compensation agreed on between the person and the Commonwealth; or
(d) failing agreement--a reasonable amount of compensation determined by a court of competent jurisdiction.
(2) Any damages or compensation recovered, or other remedy given, in a proceeding begun otherwise than under this section must be taken into account in assessing compensation payable in a proceeding begun under this section and arising out of the same event or transaction.
(3) In this section:
"acquisition of property" has the same meaning as in paragraph 51(xxxi) of the Constitution.
(4) The Consolidated Revenue Fund is appropriated for the purposes of making payments under this section.

Australian Constitution - Section 51 - Legislative powers of the Parliament
The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:-
(xxxi.) The acquisition of property on just terms from any State or person for any purpose in respect of which the Parliament has power to make laws:

[mickay]

One handed DOES not = 'Opens Automatically' as stated in the REG, the so called 'test' used by AU Customs is a 'party trick' it is a FRAUD that makes a Folding Knife 'appear' to be a 'flick knife', REALLY the 'test' has no AUTOMATIC function, it is ALL up to the skill and muscle of the operator. And thats after they mis represent what the REG actually states. And finally they claim to have the right to lossen the piviot, so what is going on?

[hunterseeker5]

Its worth mentioning though that by definition a folding knife unless it locks closed will be able to be opened with a certain amount of force. There is no decent folding knife I've yet been unable to open with a good hard wrist flick. The spyderhole is so effective there is also no spyderco I've yet come across that with practice I can't thumb flick open. (this includes things from the USN catcherman to the pacific salt which are far from easy by most people's standards) The Vollaton has a nice thick long blade, and a super silky action. Its one of the easiest to flick spyders I own, and a good wrist snap will also open it easily. Over tightening the pivot is your only hope, or having it disassembled, because by any definition its flickable. **** that hump which forms the hole you can use to catch on your pocket edge and open the knife as you draw it.

That said I still don't understand these anti-folder laws. If you want a knife thats fast and useful as a weapon you'd carry a fixed blade long before a folder. Its also worth noting that if you're trying to open a knife fast you don't flick it you just open it with your thumb. Flicking and snapping is just masturbation.

[Armalite Native]

OP - sorry this has happened to you but the political restrictions on folders have been common knowledge in the cutlery community in Australia for a number of years. At best customs will offer to send your item back to its place of origin, but unless you want to take them to court (like an intrepid Aussie is currently doing with 10 gold class Benchmades) you are out of luck. No matter the angle you spin it...they won't budge - they need to justify to the Feds that they are protecting our boarders and seized items helps their case for a pay raise.

As Roan has said there are a number of ways to get around things - but getting the prices for stuff our international brothers do...you won't have much luck IMO.

[mickay]

AN is right Customs have, by way of misrepresenation and misinformation in effect banned ALL Folding Knives, at least at the whim of the Officer concerned, this is all about unlawfull inflating their "prohibited weapons' seized figures. Getting the piviot tight may well ot save you, they have and will tamper with the item, or just seize it cause it looks like a 'flick knife'? See E-mail below;


From: "[Firearms and Weapons Policy]" <weaponspolicy@customs.gov.au>
To: <m.com.au>
Cc: "[Firearms and Weapons Policy]" <weaponspolicy@customs.gov.au>
Sent: Wednesday, 2 March 2011 7:19 AM
Subject: FW: Info [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Page 1 of 2
3/07/2011
Dear Mr
Thank you for your email.
Customs and Border Protection will only loosen the pivot screw on a folding styled knife when it
is not possible to release the blade from the handle using a two handed manual opening
method, as in the blade can't be released from the handle at all.
Regards
Tracey O’Shea | Supervisor Firearms & Weapons | Australian Customs and Border Protection
Service
P: (02) 6245 5478 | F: (02) 6275 6699
E: tracey.o’shea@customs.gov.au W: http://www.customs.gov.au
Important: The advice in this e-mail is for information only and is not binding on Customs &
Border Protection as there may be insufficient information to base a decision. If this item is
imported the Customs & Border Protection Officer and the Customs & Border Protection Office
that receives the item for clearance will make the decision as to whether or not the
requirements of the Regulations are satisfied.
From: M
Sent: Tuesday, 22 February 2011 18:51
To: [Firearms and Weapons Policy]
Subject: Re: Info [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
To who it may Concer
Are Customs Officers permitted to tamper with Folding Knives on inspection by using tools to LOSSEN
the Piviot Screw so that the knife then fails the 'TEST' as is is presently applied?
IF so is there a policy document on this?
If so IS every Folding Knife imported tampered with in such a manner?
Thanks for you time.
M
JUSTICE and the LAW are NOT NECESSARILY the SAME THING
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IMPORTANT:
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privileged information. If you are NOT the intended recipient, you are notified that any use or dissemination of
this communication is strictly prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please notify the author
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Page 2 of 2
3/07/2011

[ChrisR]

Interesting that they would loosen the pivot if it was tightened shut ... if they then attempt to flick the knife open and they declare it to be a gravity-knife equivalent then surely the fact that they themselves decided on the pivot force would invalidate their test? If they tried that with me then I would just claim that they chose a pivot tightness that was too loose and that suited their aims to seize the product unjustly.

Regarding the OP, we have similar issues in the UK with knives being seized now that were checked and allowed in in the past - with no change in the Statute or Case laws. The only explanation is that Customs went 'hard-line' when their performance (and any future promotion or pay-rises) was rated using seizure statistics - seize more and allow fewer appeals (by stonewalling and forcing the importer to pay costly Court fees) and thereby look good in the eyes of their bosses. They only do this with personal imports, not commercial, so it seems clear that they don't want to take-on someone with money and their livelihood to defend - they prefer to pick on the private importers.

First investigate their appeals process and make sure that you ask for an independent evaluation - escalate the case to as high an authority in Customs as you can and get everything in writing. They will probably tell you that you have to take them to Court and then they will threaten you with high costs if you loose. But you might find that the first level of Tribunal has a standard fee or no costs ... but take legal advice and see what they say - it'll be different in each country.

Alternatively, just suck it up and buy from an Aussie dealer or (if you want to take the risk again) get one from a dealer that will tighten the pivot. Also, if you don't like the way Customs are treating you then get writing letters to everyone who will listen - start with your local MP and work on up

[O,just,O]

Mate, we live here, we have tried dealing with this in all the ways mentioned & they allways turn up right & us wrong even if we are right. The law is applied as they see it & their minister will cover them. It's all been explained before. The way it is, is & we are not defeatist. One guy here had money & tried to fight & they broke him, others went as far as they dare before being broke.
I am sure we are a test case in this country. There is not enough of us even if we were in unison, no lobby power, demonised minority, criminals till we prove otherwise.
O.

[Sugarloaf]

Tell them there's no such thing as a knife opening by centrifugal force. The only force acting on the blade in motion is centripetal force. Have your attorney hire a physics expert and ridicule the lawmakers who drafted that description.