The face and upper head area would seem like excellent targets. I would also think these areas to be "non-lethal"... Very painful and possibly debilitating, but not lethal. I guess an anatomy book wouldn't hurt huh...
=)
Fear is the mind killer
Strikes to the face
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MercuryHayze
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Wounds to the head tented to bleed a lot, but they are necessarily painful. Their stopping power is mostly psychological. Debilitating only if you get the eyes, a target James Keating advocates in his “Reverse Grip” tape. Lastly attacking the face would not win any points with a jury, if you were trying to prove self defense.
Gavin D.
Gavin D.
As Mr. Skin said, even superficial head wounds tend to bleed a lot. I believe there is an FMA technique called "veil of blood" or something to that effect which involves slashing your opponents forehead, so that he's blinded by the copious flow of blood.
Best regards,
Argyll
Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit -- Ovid (He who is not prepared today will be less so tomorrow)
Best regards,
Argyll
Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit -- Ovid (He who is not prepared today will be less so tomorrow)
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Michael Janich
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To all:
Interesting question and some good responses. Thank you all.
One thing we need to remember as that our ultimate goal in any defensive situation is stopping the attacker -- hence the focus on "stopping power" rather than "killing power" in combat shooting. When it comes to applying a knife to the head, stopping power can be achieved; however, not always reliably.
The first possibility is a psychological stop. Any cut may cause an attacker to stop at the sight of his own blood. Cuts to the face produce this effect smewhat more reliably than cuts to other areas of the body because, 1) without a mirror, you can't accurately assess a cut and work through it, and 2) people have a natural fear of disfigurement and may cease and desist once cut across the face. With this said, there are countless examples of people who have had their faces cut severely and not only survived, but cntinued to fight.
A stop due to blood loss can be achieved with a cut to the head because, as mentioned, it is full of blood vessels and tends to bleed severely. However, the amount of blood loss necessary to cause unconsciousness is considerable. In a defensive situation, facing an armed attacker at contact distance, the last thing I want to do is wait. The "veil of blood" tactic, I believe, exists in both Eastern and Western knife technique. But again, I don't want to wait for a cut to produce a desired effect.
Stopping by attacking the central nervous system is one of the two truly reliable ways of stopping an attacker instantly. In the case of the head, we are looking mostly at pentrating the eyes or the soft palate under the chin to access the brain. Alternate routes include under the mandible from the side and, of course, the base of the skull. Obviously, these tactics are justifiable only in extreme circumstances and constitute lethal force.
Attacks to the eyes that do not pentrate deeply enough to target the brain are excellent in that they provoke an immediate debilitating response and often cause the attacker to drop his weapon to cover and assess the damage to his eyes. The reverse-grip "picking" action of Pekiti-Tirsia is the premiere example of this. Blinding a person is a very committed act, however, and may still be interpreted as application of lethal force, even if the attacker does not die.
With the exception of the eyes, most less-lethal attacks to the head simply do not have a high probability of stopping an attacker. From a suspect identification standpoint, they do "mark" your attacker for easy identification, should that aspect of things become an issue. However, those markings can also work against you in court. Head wounds tend to be gruesome. Even good guys look suspect when they apply steel to someone's face.
So what's the answer? Probably the best less-lethal attack to the head is a hard thrust straight to the forehead. Like a hard punch from a boxer, a thrust to the forehead will drive an attacker's head back with great force and speed. As his head recoils, the brain stays in place for a moment due to inertia. Before it can catch up, it smashes into the interior of the skull, causing a concussion and potentially a knockout. Further impact may be caused when the brain catches up in the other direction, or when the attacker hits the ground.
By thrusting to bone, you are purposely limiting the depth of penetration of your blade (a fact you should highlight if you are required to defend your actions in court). You will also have a very good chance of increasing the distance between you and your attacker, since knives in the forehead tend to make people back up at an amazing rate of speed. Distance equals increased safety and the potential for escape.
I hope this helps.
Stay safe,
mike j
Interesting question and some good responses. Thank you all.
One thing we need to remember as that our ultimate goal in any defensive situation is stopping the attacker -- hence the focus on "stopping power" rather than "killing power" in combat shooting. When it comes to applying a knife to the head, stopping power can be achieved; however, not always reliably.
The first possibility is a psychological stop. Any cut may cause an attacker to stop at the sight of his own blood. Cuts to the face produce this effect smewhat more reliably than cuts to other areas of the body because, 1) without a mirror, you can't accurately assess a cut and work through it, and 2) people have a natural fear of disfigurement and may cease and desist once cut across the face. With this said, there are countless examples of people who have had their faces cut severely and not only survived, but cntinued to fight.
A stop due to blood loss can be achieved with a cut to the head because, as mentioned, it is full of blood vessels and tends to bleed severely. However, the amount of blood loss necessary to cause unconsciousness is considerable. In a defensive situation, facing an armed attacker at contact distance, the last thing I want to do is wait. The "veil of blood" tactic, I believe, exists in both Eastern and Western knife technique. But again, I don't want to wait for a cut to produce a desired effect.
Stopping by attacking the central nervous system is one of the two truly reliable ways of stopping an attacker instantly. In the case of the head, we are looking mostly at pentrating the eyes or the soft palate under the chin to access the brain. Alternate routes include under the mandible from the side and, of course, the base of the skull. Obviously, these tactics are justifiable only in extreme circumstances and constitute lethal force.
Attacks to the eyes that do not pentrate deeply enough to target the brain are excellent in that they provoke an immediate debilitating response and often cause the attacker to drop his weapon to cover and assess the damage to his eyes. The reverse-grip "picking" action of Pekiti-Tirsia is the premiere example of this. Blinding a person is a very committed act, however, and may still be interpreted as application of lethal force, even if the attacker does not die.
With the exception of the eyes, most less-lethal attacks to the head simply do not have a high probability of stopping an attacker. From a suspect identification standpoint, they do "mark" your attacker for easy identification, should that aspect of things become an issue. However, those markings can also work against you in court. Head wounds tend to be gruesome. Even good guys look suspect when they apply steel to someone's face.
So what's the answer? Probably the best less-lethal attack to the head is a hard thrust straight to the forehead. Like a hard punch from a boxer, a thrust to the forehead will drive an attacker's head back with great force and speed. As his head recoils, the brain stays in place for a moment due to inertia. Before it can catch up, it smashes into the interior of the skull, causing a concussion and potentially a knockout. Further impact may be caused when the brain catches up in the other direction, or when the attacker hits the ground.
By thrusting to bone, you are purposely limiting the depth of penetration of your blade (a fact you should highlight if you are required to defend your actions in court). You will also have a very good chance of increasing the distance between you and your attacker, since knives in the forehead tend to make people back up at an amazing rate of speed. Distance equals increased safety and the potential for escape.
I hope this helps.
Stay safe,
mike j
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MercuryHayze
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SpydercoKnut
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You have to be very careful when you cut or strike someone in the facial and head area. Blood will come out rather quickly if it's a deep cut or laceration. In the eyes of a judge, this is "Assault with a Weapon" whether you use a knife, beer bottle, broom stick, etc even though you were only trying to defend yourself.
Edited by - SpydercoKnut on 12/18/2002 8:38:11 PM
Edited by - SpydercoKnut on 12/18/2002 8:39:30 PM
Edited by - SpydercoKnut on 12/18/2002 8:38:11 PM
Edited by - SpydercoKnut on 12/18/2002 8:39:30 PM
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MercuryHayze
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MercuryHayze
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"In the eyes of a judge, this is "Assault with a Weapon" whether you use a knife, beer bottle, broom stick, etc even though you were only trying to defend yourself."
--------------------------------------------
Good point, and there are a million possible situations where that would be the last thing on my mind... =)
Fear is the mind killer
--------------------------------------------
Good point, and there are a million possible situations where that would be the last thing on my mind... =)
Fear is the mind killer
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Michael Janich
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"In the eyes of a judge, this is "Assault with a Weapon" whether you use a knife, beer bottle, broom stick, etc even though you were only trying to defend yourself."
________________________________________
We need to remember that as soon as we introduce ANY weapon into a conflict, we run the risk of assault-with-a-deadly-weapon charges. In offering my comments, I assumed that if you are using a knife on someone, it's because you are in fear of your life -- the ONLY real prerequisite that would justify your use of the knife. If you are using a knife in any lesser situation, you're on thin ice legally. This can apply to closed folders as well since, by definition, they are still "knives" even if you choose not to use them as such.
Also, the phrase "only trying to defend yourself" is a potentially dangerous understatement. Any time you use physical force to keep yourself or a loved one safe, it's a serious matter. I would never lessen the importance of that with the word "only." In reality, you should have been FORCED to defend yourself only after you sought every possible means of escape and deescalation of the situation.
Stay safe,
mike j
________________________________________
We need to remember that as soon as we introduce ANY weapon into a conflict, we run the risk of assault-with-a-deadly-weapon charges. In offering my comments, I assumed that if you are using a knife on someone, it's because you are in fear of your life -- the ONLY real prerequisite that would justify your use of the knife. If you are using a knife in any lesser situation, you're on thin ice legally. This can apply to closed folders as well since, by definition, they are still "knives" even if you choose not to use them as such.
Also, the phrase "only trying to defend yourself" is a potentially dangerous understatement. Any time you use physical force to keep yourself or a loved one safe, it's a serious matter. I would never lessen the importance of that with the word "only." In reality, you should have been FORCED to defend yourself only after you sought every possible means of escape and deescalation of the situation.
Stay safe,
mike j
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Michael Janich
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Dear KenN:
Thanks for your well-reasoned comments. Your head is definitely in the right place on this issue.
I have not officially trained in Pekiti Tirsia, but have researched it in depth over the years and had the opportunity to glean some great information from folks who have actively trained in it. Very cool stuff...
I agree with your point that any head shot with a blade can become a gaping wound because of the mobility (and convex nature) of the head. As such, I guess the final verdict is that it is not an ideal less-than-lethal target (unless we start talking impact strikes with the butt of the knife).
Thanks again to everyone for contributing to a cool thread.
Stay safe,
mike j
Thanks for your well-reasoned comments. Your head is definitely in the right place on this issue.
I have not officially trained in Pekiti Tirsia, but have researched it in depth over the years and had the opportunity to glean some great information from folks who have actively trained in it. Very cool stuff...
I agree with your point that any head shot with a blade can become a gaping wound because of the mobility (and convex nature) of the head. As such, I guess the final verdict is that it is not an ideal less-than-lethal target (unless we start talking impact strikes with the butt of the knife).
Thanks again to everyone for contributing to a cool thread.
Stay safe,
mike j
All;
Is there any data base similar to the "Ayoob Files" (firearms related) for actual situations where a person has defended him/her self w/ a knife & has been (almost certainly) arrested, then had to defend their actions in court? I read a lot of speculation as to how a court or jury may/may not interupt defensive actions using a knife, but have not, as yet, read any actual legal decisions. Are there any attorney reading this forum that care to respond? I think we might all be very surprised & shocked by the real world results. People outside of martial arts or law enforcement have a much different view (almost always unrealistic) of knifes & the reality of combat than respondents in this forum. There have been some interesting words written in "Journal of Asian Martial Arts" volumes 10 & 11, November 2002, regarding employing martial arts skills to defend one's self, written by an attorney & martial arts instructor. I would think that any time a knife is employed it would constitute "lethal force" just as any time a firearm is employed it constitutes the same, can you legaly cut someone "just a little"? I know you can't shoot someone "just a little" - in the view of the courts. And when are you legaly allowed to stand & fight & when are you required to run away? Be aware that different states have very different legal requirements & views on the matter. Everyone that seriously anticipates ever having to use a knife (or firearm for that matter) should spend the money to get a legal opinion from an attorney in their state. Also you all should realize that everything written here could & probably would be subpoenaed into court should any of you be involved in a knife related "event" so mind your manners - big brother is reading! PS if a tanto blade knife can penetrate a car door, as advertised, would it not penetrate someone's forehead?
Is there any data base similar to the "Ayoob Files" (firearms related) for actual situations where a person has defended him/her self w/ a knife & has been (almost certainly) arrested, then had to defend their actions in court? I read a lot of speculation as to how a court or jury may/may not interupt defensive actions using a knife, but have not, as yet, read any actual legal decisions. Are there any attorney reading this forum that care to respond? I think we might all be very surprised & shocked by the real world results. People outside of martial arts or law enforcement have a much different view (almost always unrealistic) of knifes & the reality of combat than respondents in this forum. There have been some interesting words written in "Journal of Asian Martial Arts" volumes 10 & 11, November 2002, regarding employing martial arts skills to defend one's self, written by an attorney & martial arts instructor. I would think that any time a knife is employed it would constitute "lethal force" just as any time a firearm is employed it constitutes the same, can you legaly cut someone "just a little"? I know you can't shoot someone "just a little" - in the view of the courts. And when are you legaly allowed to stand & fight & when are you required to run away? Be aware that different states have very different legal requirements & views on the matter. Everyone that seriously anticipates ever having to use a knife (or firearm for that matter) should spend the money to get a legal opinion from an attorney in their state. Also you all should realize that everything written here could & probably would be subpoenaed into court should any of you be involved in a knife related "event" so mind your manners - big brother is reading! PS if a tanto blade knife can penetrate a car door, as advertised, would it not penetrate someone's forehead?
Mas Ayoob has addressed defense with a knife in at least one "Ayoob Files" a few years ago. None of the incidents in that article had much info on the courtroom outcome. One occurred in South America, and the defender was not prosecuted, and in the incident in which Graciela Casillas defended herself, I believe the bad guys did not go to the police, and if I remember correctly, it is believed the bad guy who survived probably dumped the body of the one believed to have been killed. A recent incident in which a prosecuting attorney was "thrown to the wolves" and prosecuted in San Francisco has received pretty thorough discussion in www.selfdefenseforums.com, and browsing there is free to anyone. He was acquitted, BTW.
Rex G, et al;
Thank you for the web address, I will visit & learn! It has been my experience (10 yrs in state & Federal law enforcement) that public opinion regarding knifes is (if possible) even more negative & misconceieved than opinion regarding firearms. And public opinion influences prosecution, courts & jurys! I have trained w/ Mr. Ayoob & attended his seminars; one particularly educational seminar was, surviving the post self defense legal attack(s) that will most certainly come both in criminal & civil court. Knowing the "correct" words to say/not say, tests to insist on, procedures etc MAY save you, your life savings & your family from disaster. I would encourage everyone to obtain a copy of & read Mr. Ayoob's excellent book "In the Gravest Extreme" Paladin Press $11.95 written for civilian firearms owners. I would think that many of the same legal requirements put forth for firearms defensive use would also hold true for use of a knife in life threatening self defense situation. Do not carry a 10" Rambo Mark V chromed super killer! make it a key chain girl scout edged finger nail cleaner! I would encourage anyone carring a knife for self defense (not posing) make themselves comfortable somewhere private & really, really imagine the reality & aftermath of being forced to defend oneself with a knife; I've seen it - eyes dangling, ears cut off, faces slashed & hanging open, blood - it's a sobering image & well it should be. After that re-examine your intent, purpose & resolve. Do not, of your own choice, put yourself in a situation where you are forced to defend your life. (yes I know life is not perfect & sometimes evil seeks you out) "the best way to avoid getting your*****kicked is to NOT be there when it happens"
Hope this all is not too preachy, but it is reality.
To quote Mike - be safe!
Thank you for the web address, I will visit & learn! It has been my experience (10 yrs in state & Federal law enforcement) that public opinion regarding knifes is (if possible) even more negative & misconceieved than opinion regarding firearms. And public opinion influences prosecution, courts & jurys! I have trained w/ Mr. Ayoob & attended his seminars; one particularly educational seminar was, surviving the post self defense legal attack(s) that will most certainly come both in criminal & civil court. Knowing the "correct" words to say/not say, tests to insist on, procedures etc MAY save you, your life savings & your family from disaster. I would encourage everyone to obtain a copy of & read Mr. Ayoob's excellent book "In the Gravest Extreme" Paladin Press $11.95 written for civilian firearms owners. I would think that many of the same legal requirements put forth for firearms defensive use would also hold true for use of a knife in life threatening self defense situation. Do not carry a 10" Rambo Mark V chromed super killer! make it a key chain girl scout edged finger nail cleaner! I would encourage anyone carring a knife for self defense (not posing) make themselves comfortable somewhere private & really, really imagine the reality & aftermath of being forced to defend oneself with a knife; I've seen it - eyes dangling, ears cut off, faces slashed & hanging open, blood - it's a sobering image & well it should be. After that re-examine your intent, purpose & resolve. Do not, of your own choice, put yourself in a situation where you are forced to defend your life. (yes I know life is not perfect & sometimes evil seeks you out) "the best way to avoid getting your*****kicked is to NOT be there when it happens"
Hope this all is not too preachy, but it is reality.
To quote Mike - be safe!
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MercuryHayze
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Ken;
I agree w/ your points regarding knife selection(s). There are always, always trade-off's - "better judged by 12 than carried by 6..." However, my point was choose a knife that either is carried by law enforcement officers, like the Spyderco "Police" model or something that has an innocuous name like "Chinook" or "Civilian" a knife that doesn't make you look like Charles Manson's crazy evil brother. Choose a knife that you can argue you carry for something other than strictly self defense - work, sports, hunting etc. If it's something that is carried or endorsed by law enforcement so much the better! then you have the added argument that if it's safe enough for the police then it must be OK for Joe Citizen (same goes for your pistol ammunition, don't load up home made rounds, or multipule war head felon killers, OK don't laugh there IS a round named "Felon Grabbers" that have a saw tooth tipped hollow point! use what the local cops carry it's much easier to justify) At any rate, choose a knife that will allow you to defend yourself if necessary & allow for a reasonable explanation in court if required. I have trained w/ "No Lie Blades" (they leave a mark similar to a felt pen if you get "cut"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> & it is difficult (at my skill level) to do any fancy moves, there's simply no time, your opponent doesn't react as anticipated or does something unexpected; not to mention having to fight in low light level situations, on uneven terrain, you get your glasses torn off etc - in other words reality! always expect a visit from Mr. Murphy! You will fight the way you train! - I know this from real world experience, I was the entry man on a high risk warrant arrest team. So train as real as you can make it, train often & train the basics. Remember an expert is just someone that is very, very good at the basics.
Hope this information is useful to someone out there!
I agree w/ your points regarding knife selection(s). There are always, always trade-off's - "better judged by 12 than carried by 6..." However, my point was choose a knife that either is carried by law enforcement officers, like the Spyderco "Police" model or something that has an innocuous name like "Chinook" or "Civilian" a knife that doesn't make you look like Charles Manson's crazy evil brother. Choose a knife that you can argue you carry for something other than strictly self defense - work, sports, hunting etc. If it's something that is carried or endorsed by law enforcement so much the better! then you have the added argument that if it's safe enough for the police then it must be OK for Joe Citizen (same goes for your pistol ammunition, don't load up home made rounds, or multipule war head felon killers, OK don't laugh there IS a round named "Felon Grabbers" that have a saw tooth tipped hollow point! use what the local cops carry it's much easier to justify) At any rate, choose a knife that will allow you to defend yourself if necessary & allow for a reasonable explanation in court if required. I have trained w/ "No Lie Blades" (they leave a mark similar to a felt pen if you get "cut"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> & it is difficult (at my skill level) to do any fancy moves, there's simply no time, your opponent doesn't react as anticipated or does something unexpected; not to mention having to fight in low light level situations, on uneven terrain, you get your glasses torn off etc - in other words reality! always expect a visit from Mr. Murphy! You will fight the way you train! - I know this from real world experience, I was the entry man on a high risk warrant arrest team. So train as real as you can make it, train often & train the basics. Remember an expert is just someone that is very, very good at the basics.
Hope this information is useful to someone out there!
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MercuryHayze
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