Backup knife for police duty (self-defense) - wich steel?

[koolstof]

Hi there,



I'm looking for a blade that should serve as a backup weapon for police officers, so it should take a very sharp edge and hold it. I will not sharpen it myself so wether it takes a nice edge easily is not important. As I will coat it, corrosion resistance is not that important. I'm willing to spend quite a lot of money.



I'm not looking in the first place for a specific brand or type (though that is welcome too) but the right steel for the job.



Here are my own candidates (no VG-10 as I already own a few VG-10 folders):



*Damascus

*CPM-440V

*CV20 (what is that actually???)

*M2 tool steel

*D2 tool steel

*S30V, S60V, S90V

*BG-42





-koolstof from Belgium-

[aero_student]

My best piece of advice would be to check out the g10 handled civilians. You have to be careful what you coat ANY steel with though. In my looking and research over the last several years I have only found one coating that is acceptable. Boron carbide coating from bodycote is the way to go. It has an amazing amount of wear and corrosion resistance. It does not wear off, ever. It is also the only one that will not EVER effect temper and heat treatment. It will also help make the knife smoother and faster to open. Yeah, there you have it. Order a civilian and have spyderco disassemble it then have them send the blade and any other metal parts to bodycote with $25 for coating and have spyderco reassemble it. That should give you the ultimate backup tool.

[KBR]

Back up, self-defense blade for Law Enforcement????

As marauder advised, there is nothing more potent for this purpose than the <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Civilian.

I would recommend the VG-10 steel, as it takes a <i>WICKEDLY </i> sharp edge. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Survive, Adapt, and Overcome...

[jaxon]

koolstof,

Welcome to the forum.<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

I would certainly recommend the SpyderCo Civilian. Take your choice of the several configurations if you're willing to go the cost (plenty).<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Don't know about a LEO but I carry mine (carbon fiber Spyder edge ATS55 blade) in the hope I will never have to use it for it's intended purpose. If ever I hope only once. Good luck with your choice. <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>Co Civilian Rules.

Jaxon

Weekend yet?

[Knife Knut]

Welcome to the forum koolstof.
We could better help you if you went into more detail as to your needs.

Aproximate desired blade length?

Folder or fixed blade? A fixed blade has a distinct advantage in the backup role because the blade is already deployed, thus preempting many problems. For instance, fine motor skills sometimes needed to deploy a folder can go to pieces unless it is a part of your muscle memory. You could drop the knife.

Will this be strictly a backup weapon or will it end up being used for utillity purposes?

Beat Cop or SWAT?
Level of officer training?

Double edge or Single edge?

Fighting knife or Combat/Tactical knife?


Knife Knut on a shoestring budget.

[koolstof]

I think I prefer a double edged, maybe even a fixed, I'm a simple policeman that goes in the streets. My real job for now is protecting valuable stuff in escorte-style, an occasional riot-control thingie, moving prisoners from one place to another.

No utility cutting, this knife should come out when I really and fastly need it. Blade size can be rather large (as Civilian)

I'm know considdering an expensive AUTO-opener, that is, if I can get the people of www.knifecenter.com to send me one.

Thanx

-koolstof from Belgium-

[koolstof]

I narrowed my search a little bit down,

* Civilian G10
* automatic opener in S90V (Microtech)<-- THIS IS MY FAVOURITE, as I believe the S90V-steel is of outstanding quality and Microtech is a fine brand in general
* a neck knife (discrete carry, serves it "emergency" purpose
* a fixed dagger (Boker Damascus) that a hang round neck with lanyard or conceal in my boot.

I think I'm going to use a long lanyard en fix the other end to my belt. This increases the chance of rapid retrieval and diminishes the chances of loosing it (in a struggle or not)

-koolstof from Belgium-

[koolstof]

Some considderations for my backup police-weapon for emergency self-defence needs. Should take an excellent, razorsharp edge an d hold for some time, corrossion resistant (I wil coat the blade with a really adhesive thick oil whatsoever, but when I carry it concealed it will be close to my body and I sweat a lot). No utility purposes, strictly medium-emergency cutting)... that's why I'm considdering the very hard but somewhat brittle tool steels. I will not hammer or chop with it. Best case scenario: knife holds it keen factory edge (I'm no great sharpener, my topquality knifes go back to the factory or a cutlery shop in Belgium), stays spotless, is never used (= use equals immediate danger), rapid deployment (I'm considdering a Boker Damascus fixed dagger or a Microtech auto-opener in S90V steel (I know, they are costly but I really really love a good knife, just looking at it gives me a lot of pleasure as most people (you call them "sheeple" I think, refuse to spend a reasonable amount for a knife, they do not realise that quality has to be payed).

Ooh, I think a knife with its specific needs should be serrated (more tissue damage, stays sharp quite a while, looks more fierce and intimidates potential attacker). Remember, no precision cutting is required.

Perhaps even a Benchmade in M2 tool steel wich I hone razorsharp.

Wich tool steel ( or other) would best serve my specific needs (low use, self protection, corrosion resistant, dual edge, no shock are hammering use, no prying, NO UTILITY purposes, edge HOLDING for extended periods and able to take a really really sharp knife, if the edge is damaged after one use, it does not matter, at least I had a really sharp knive for the job: selfdefence weapon in extreme cases only, chances are slim that I ever use it but if I ever need it, it has to be there for me. You can compare the knife with an airbag in a car, dependable, low use and after action subject to (heavy) maintenance.
The knife may be costly as it has to serve a long time and needs to be dependable.

Some of the steels I considder:

*M2 toolsteel
*D2 toolsteel
*A2 toolsteel
*Damascus
*BG-42
*S30V, S60V, S90V
*CPM440V
*154 CM

Right now, my preferences are CPM440V (edge holding capacities, heavy duty), the S90V in a Microtech auto-opener (wich is better for me S30V or S90V). The S90V steel sounds really good to me, I know it's expensive, can somebody give me the pro's and con's? The M2 tool steel for its extreme hardness, that the knife is somewhat brittle does not matter for its specific use and corrosion resistance can be augmented with a regular coating. A Boker fixed dagger in DAMASCUS, although I believe DAMASCUS overqualifies my needs. I hear A2-TOOLSTEEL takes a supersharp edge... Is that right and is that edge somewhat durable? And the D2 and M2, wich one takes and holds the sharpest edge?
I already mentioned the long LANYARD I would tie to my belt to enhance knife retrieval. I would use a long, strong black shoelace (the kind I wear in my combatshoes, they are rather heavy duty) for that purpose.

I know I'm asking a lot, but I cannot resist the urge of making a well-informed purchase, this brings fulfillment even if I never use the blade. Besides, I'm sure that many others are looking for the same thing as me, this could be a helpfull thread for people with the same demands as me.

Thanks a lot, my dear knife-friends, I'm glad I found a forum where knives can seriously be discussed.

-koolstof from Belgium-

[Pachucko]

Bam...

"For instance, fine motor skills sometimes needed to deploy a folder can go to pieces unless it is a part of your muscle memory."

That's why I like the Gunting. Just kin-op it!

I've been experimenting with carrying it off-side. A gross motor skill opening, back-up blade.

Pachucks

[Carlos]

The Civilian was *designed* to be a law enforcement back-up weapon. It has no utility function.

Spyderco doesn't make any double-edged knives.

For fixed blades have a look at the Temperance.

[yog]

Hmm ...To fill all your critera I would go with a fully serrated Spyderco Military.

G-10 handle for a good grip.
CPM440v steel to fulfil your requirement.
Liner lock for speed. Don't worry, the linner lock on the Military is one of the best around, you'll have no lock failure worries with this beauty.

As you don't want to sharpen the knife often I would strongly recommend going with the fully serrated model. The inner curves of the serrations have a shallower angle for increased sharpness, but are protected by the outer "teeth". Even for daily utility use a serrated blade will stay sharper longer than a plain edge. Also for defence the serrations have the intimidation factor <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Another knife that fulfils your requirements is the leaf bladed Lil' Temperance. It might not have the intimidation factor of a fully serrated Military, but it feels very good in the hand and inspires confidence in the user, also an important factor.

Good luck.

Walk softly, carry a big stick.

[Rex G]

Just a few thoughts from a tired patrol officer that just finished a night shift and then several hours in court.... we are not talking about swords or heavy-use tools, so the exact steel used is not so important. The quality of the heat treatment is far more important than the type of steel, because you don't want a knife that will break in the moment of truth. I will view this post again later today, and elaborate on some things then. My answer, is a Gunting in the right front pocket, discreetly out of sight behind the duty holster. (Yes, I know I have said in this forum I am lefty---it's a long story---with pistols I am ambidextrous.) In the left front pocket, a rescue-type knife, currently the new Rescue 93mm. I have a Harpy in a rear pants pocket, and a Civilian tucked under my clothing where I can reach inside my collar and deploy it quickly. I carry various other multi-tools and tiny utility knives on an irregular basis, but the above listed are my basic four.

[koolstof]

Thanks for your fresh reactions, they really offer me new insights. Like this, I hope one day to grow to a real knife expert that uses the specific nomenclature without effort and who knows what he is talking about. Thanks to all for you considderation and your help. What's more, I'm starting to see why that many folks are hardcore Spyderco fans. At first I was sceptic but it really seems that Spyderco really deserves my (fragile) confidence. More and more I start to believe that you cannot go wrong with Spydies and that they equal top notch quality. If you ad the customer service that has an outstanding reputation (I myself never needed to use it) and that the people of Spyderco really seem to care for the comments of the ordinary user. This openess and willfullness to evolve should equal a great knifemaking company that is worth her flawless reputation... But make no mistake, I will continu to scrupelously inspect and evaluate all of my knifes, I don't trust ANY brand blindly, not even Spyderco :-p

-koolstof from Belgium: "a high-end blade will be worth its high purchase price in the end, if used and maintained properly, a good knife is irreplacable and beautifull, its simplicity is part of its effectiveness."-

[Rex G]

Just a few more thoughts: I have carried a fixed blade before, attached to my body armor straps. I could reach inside my collar to eploy it. I stopped using it because I had to use a unique grip method for just that one knife, and I preferred to be able to train gripping all my knifes the same, because simple is good in a life-or- death fight. I may return to that method with a different knife. I am also thinking about a custom kerambit tucked into the front waist area behind my duty belt, with the
"ring" just below the waistband, for concealment with fairly rapid deployment. I am serious regarding blades as back-up weapons, because I have had two back-up pistols "escape" while sprinting, and another time, during a struggle with a suspect, saw another officer's backup pistol on the ground, within the suspect's reach. I still have multiple firearms with me on duty, but usually wear only one. Sentry Solutions products work well for me to protect from corrosion.

[koolstof]

In the police life it isn't unimaginable that your pistol forfaits or you're unable to fire it (lots of innocent civilians around, chance of a stray bullet, even after is has penetrated assaillants body, the type of ammo we use has still enough "lethal force" for a second victim of the same bullet.) You can loose your gun when running, or it can be taken from you (secretly when your occupied and not paying attention or with force - as a matter of fact most police officers who fall victim to gunfire are injured by their own personal weapon, your biggest friend can also pose a genuine threat. Close combat with an attacker also compromise the use of firepower. That's why I believe in the potential usefullness of a backup knife-weapon. A knife covers some specific purposes wich a pistol can not. What's more, here in Belgium we're allowed to carry but one firearm (except in specific missions, when another rifle is supplied to you for the time of the mission) and that firearm is exactly defined, every bullet that is gone has to be extensivly accounted for. The laws regarding usage of police force are very strict in Belgium (too strict...?). The balance between a tirranesque police state and a strong and adquatly prepared police force, capable of protecting it's citizens and fighting crime with the means necessary, is weak and subject to constant change. I choose to keep a backup selfdefence knife handy, although it is unlikely it will ever serve it's specific "ultimate" purpose, at least it IS there when you need it (like an airbag in a car, it sits there doing nothing except "being ready for action" untill summoned by the user. I try to cover as many unforseeable events and it does not seem so unlikely that a knife eventually will pay of its price and the trouble of carrying it and keeping it handy. It's a welcome supplement to a policeman's firearm and last but not least a tool that can help you in nasty predicaments (car flipped over, cut oneself free urgently, because of oncoming highspeed traffic that could worsen the whole situation). I already spent quite some time on the Belgian highways and I can tell you that it is a real dangerous place to be (Belgians drive like idiots, really fast if the see a gap, the asphalted roadnetwork is one of the densest in the world and traffic seems to grow year by year). Yeah, I got a bit carried away there :-) well, I justed wanted to motivate my point for the need of "an emergency knife"... just in case... better safe then sorry. I high end knife is never a waste of money to me, even if it fails to meet his ultimate goal (saving your life or that of a third party). People who are against carriage of protection knifes because of unlikelyhood you will ever need it should never wear their seatbelt in their car and disable their airbag :-)Knifes offer fullfilment, even when unused, you cannot go wrong with a highquality knife (even when you account the substantial price). Just knowing they are there for you, top notch tools whose qualities that explain the apparent no-use price difference are but for a happy few divulged, brings a smile to my lips :-)

I think (or "fear&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> I never will grow tired of admirring a wellcrafted knife and I will perpetually feel the urge to do better and surpass my present knives... I just know many of you feel this way ;-) It a real consuming hobby that has much to offer, a hobby that doesn't imply that you are a warmonger, the interest and the study that preceeds the purchase of a specific knife are great, every knife is a comprimise in one way or another, if you manage to fit the blades qualities with your particular demands, you will feel like a million bucks (well, I know I will, perhaps you too)!!! The constant evolution and the endless variations of a huge market makes it interesting, a well educated choice knows no price... Fitting the endless supply with your limited resources is a real challenge to me.

-koolstof from Belgium: "a high-end blade will be worth its high purchase price in the end, if used and maintained properly, a good knife is irreplacable and beautifull, its simplicity is part of its effectiveness."-

[TheKnifeCollector]

How about the Speyderco Police in eithe SS handles or G!) scales. EXCELLENT duty knife! I keep mine clipped behind
my double mag pouch.

[Alan2112]

I'm a LEO, and my back up is an Almite Navigator w/<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>edge. I use the ring finger deployment from my left pocket, it really works good for me! RKBA!

[koolstof]

I'm really considdering to precisly formulate what I am looking for and if the big brands don't meet my needs close enough I think the best (not cheapest and fastest) option is to have one custom made. Still there remains one big question, who can I trust with this sensitive task?

-koolstof from Belgium: "a high-end blade will be worth its high purchase price in the end, if used and maintained properly, a good knife is irreplacable and beautifull, its simplicity is part of its effectiveness."-

[sc_rebel1957]

I second all the votes for the Civilian and ofcourse for the Military, i offer only 1 suggestion have you checked out the Ronin neck knife?
Lots to be said for the mode of carry. Ron

[Shang Chi]

Koolstof,

With all due respect, I would suggest that you invest time and money in seeking out the best training, in martial blade craft and/or martial skills in general (I humbly suggest Wing Chun), that you can possibly find.

Being a skilled fighter, with or without a knife, will make the specifics of the construction or the design of the knife you think you need secondary to your ability to use it. A man with skill and a high level of training can do more with a reasonably well constructed knife than a novice can do with the finest blade ever constructed by the hands of man.

In my opinion...