I thought I'd throw this question out there in hopes that Sal will reply but I'd welcome input from anyone.
I'm curious as to the choice of steel used in some of the Spyderco folders.
It seems to me that the primary goal of Spyderco is to create blades that are excellent cutters and hold an edge a long time. Most people seem to have these properties in mind when blade performance is mentioned and that is understandable.
But what about a knife designed for hard us? A wilderness knife, a "survival knife? The Military comes to mind. It is or has been offered in S30V, CPM-M4, S90V and I believe some others, but it seems like these steels are selected for their edge retention more than for their toughness and ease of re-sharpening.
Even the heat treat on these steels seems to be aimed at maximizing the edge holding ability but this often increases the brittleness of the blade.
On a knife like the Military, wouldn't it make sense to offer a blade that is designed to be extremely tough even if it meant that it wouldn't hold a hair popping edge as long? Maybe dial back the hardness of the steel slightly so as to maximize the toughness of the blade? And to have a tip that is a little thicker so that breakage less likely? Just a thought.
Maybe this has been discussed before and if so I apologize.
As a side question, which steel that Spyderco uses would you consider to be the strongest/toughest?
Blade question
I'm a little surprised that there are no replies, even if just to disagree with me!
I'm beginning to think that CPM-M4 might be the best thing going right now. What's the likelyhood that Spyderco will produce another knive with this steel? A Manix, Sage, Military, ParaMilitary - any of those in M4 I'd buy in a heartbeat.
I'm beginning to think that CPM-M4 might be the best thing going right now. What's the likelyhood that Spyderco will produce another knive with this steel? A Manix, Sage, Military, ParaMilitary - any of those in M4 I'd buy in a heartbeat.
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Frapiscide
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For a survival knife, nothing can beat a fixed blade in strength/toughness. Steel choice isn't a huge deal, check their heat treats/quality/eros/other factors. The toughest steel that Spyderco produces is H1. I've heard stories of it bending 90 degrees and not breaking.
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Welcome harrydog,
sit tight and read some other posts before you make a decision. All steels are compromises between edge holding, toughness, ease of sharpening, corrosion resistance etc. I doubt any of us will find the "perfect" steel. You also have to take into account blade grind, edge angle, blade thickness etc.
I find vg-10 is a really good all around steel. It's tough, holds an edge well, and is easy to sharpen. I've had no problems with s30v either. The O-1 in the bushcraft is terrific in edge holding, sharpening ease, and toughness, but will rust if you get it wet and look at it sideways. Haven't used the cpm m4 enough to comment on it, but I've heard it's real nice.
It's all about how you want to use the knife and the qualities you want from it in that situation. A lot of variables come into play.
VG-10 is really a terrific all around steel for a knife.
The founder of the company isn't going to chime in on every thread here. I enjoy it that he chooses to as much as he does :)
For starters vg-10 is really good, it only gets better from there :)
sit tight and read some other posts before you make a decision. All steels are compromises between edge holding, toughness, ease of sharpening, corrosion resistance etc. I doubt any of us will find the "perfect" steel. You also have to take into account blade grind, edge angle, blade thickness etc.
I find vg-10 is a really good all around steel. It's tough, holds an edge well, and is easy to sharpen. I've had no problems with s30v either. The O-1 in the bushcraft is terrific in edge holding, sharpening ease, and toughness, but will rust if you get it wet and look at it sideways. Haven't used the cpm m4 enough to comment on it, but I've heard it's real nice.
It's all about how you want to use the knife and the qualities you want from it in that situation. A lot of variables come into play.
VG-10 is really a terrific all around steel for a knife.
The founder of the company isn't going to chime in on every thread here. I enjoy it that he chooses to as much as he does :)
For starters vg-10 is really good, it only gets better from there :)
Charlie
" Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler."
[CENTER]"Integrity is being good even if no one is watching"[/CENTER]
" Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not one bit simpler."
[CENTER]"Integrity is being good even if no one is watching"[/CENTER]
Personally, I'd like to see more CPM-3V. It has extremely high toughness, very good edge retention, and moderate corrosion resistance. It's not stainless but that's not a deal breaker for me, its other attributes more than make up for that.
I'm eagerly anticipating the Ed Schempp Tuff.
I wish there were more offerings of 3V in a fixed blade. It seems like the ideal steel for a fixed blade of any size.
I'm eagerly anticipating the Ed Schempp Tuff.
I wish there were more offerings of 3V in a fixed blade. It seems like the ideal steel for a fixed blade of any size.
Hi Harrydog,
Welcome to the Spydeerco forum.
Your questions is not so simple as it may seem. I'll try to share some thought with you, but it will probably take dialogue for greater understanding.
First of all, to us, "Hard Use" has always meant cutting "hard to cut" stuff. Stuff tht dulls a knife easily. Knives are for cutting and cutting hard to cut things is hard use.
More recently, "hard use" has been meant to included; digging (shovel), prying (prybar), hammering (hammer). That type of activity is probably more abuse than hard use for knives.
The more we try to make them prybars, hammers and shovels, the further we will go from very high cutting performance.
Our Military model was designed to be light (so you bother to have it with you), reliable (your life may depend on it's ability to cut something) and a very high cutting performer. Most soldiers will have some type of fixed blade issued which they will use for digging, prying and hammering, which will quickly damage the edge of most knives.
Most of the time we try to optimize the steel for the function. Ed Shempp's "tuff" design will use CPM-3V because of it's toughness. Our Bushcraft uses 0-1 which is preferred by that group. Both 3V and O-1 are not stainless and will need more maintenance to keep from corroding.
As mentioned, VG-10 and S30V are exceptional "all around" steels for edge retention, toughness and corrosion resistance.
Other than edge geometry, ease of sharpening is not a major concern. Usually steels that are easy to sharpen are easy to dull. Modern sharpeners will handle modern steels so why do we need ease of sharpening? (except maybe to market a less expensive steel?) With a good steel and a good sharpener, they are all easy to sharpen.
All steels have advantages and disadvantages. "All good, just different".
Corrosion resistance is important in a "wilderness" steel because the first thing to rust is the edge because it's exposed on both sides. Once the edge ruts away, it's no longer a knife.
I guess that's a start.
sal
Welcome to the Spydeerco forum.
Your questions is not so simple as it may seem. I'll try to share some thought with you, but it will probably take dialogue for greater understanding.
First of all, to us, "Hard Use" has always meant cutting "hard to cut" stuff. Stuff tht dulls a knife easily. Knives are for cutting and cutting hard to cut things is hard use.
More recently, "hard use" has been meant to included; digging (shovel), prying (prybar), hammering (hammer). That type of activity is probably more abuse than hard use for knives.
The more we try to make them prybars, hammers and shovels, the further we will go from very high cutting performance.
Our Military model was designed to be light (so you bother to have it with you), reliable (your life may depend on it's ability to cut something) and a very high cutting performer. Most soldiers will have some type of fixed blade issued which they will use for digging, prying and hammering, which will quickly damage the edge of most knives.
Most of the time we try to optimize the steel for the function. Ed Shempp's "tuff" design will use CPM-3V because of it's toughness. Our Bushcraft uses 0-1 which is preferred by that group. Both 3V and O-1 are not stainless and will need more maintenance to keep from corroding.
As mentioned, VG-10 and S30V are exceptional "all around" steels for edge retention, toughness and corrosion resistance.
Other than edge geometry, ease of sharpening is not a major concern. Usually steels that are easy to sharpen are easy to dull. Modern sharpeners will handle modern steels so why do we need ease of sharpening? (except maybe to market a less expensive steel?) With a good steel and a good sharpener, they are all easy to sharpen.
All steels have advantages and disadvantages. "All good, just different".
Corrosion resistance is important in a "wilderness" steel because the first thing to rust is the edge because it's exposed on both sides. Once the edge ruts away, it's no longer a knife.
I guess that's a start.
sal
Wilderness knife
If I were buying a camping/wilderness knife today, I would go with the old but proven K-Bar. 1095 steel which is nothing special. I used one a lot when younger, chopping brush, opening cans. Never found a job too tough for it, plus they are easy to sharpen.
fast.ed
fast.ed
Nice perspective. Thanks Sal! You're right on the money about fixed vs. folding knives. In 30 years of service, I never reached for a folder to do the heavy lifting. I only expected my folders to cut, not dig a spider hole or turn fence posts into toothpicks.
I am quite fond of S30v as one of the best all-around, stainless blade steels. I'm also enamored with ZDP-189 for pure cutting performance and the CPM-M4 on the Gayle Bradley for toughness. I greatly appreciate the variety of knife designs and blade steels that Spyderco offers. There's something for everyone and lots of variety for anyone!
I am quite fond of S30v as one of the best all-around, stainless blade steels. I'm also enamored with ZDP-189 for pure cutting performance and the CPM-M4 on the Gayle Bradley for toughness. I greatly appreciate the variety of knife designs and blade steels that Spyderco offers. There's something for everyone and lots of variety for anyone!
:spyder:: Advocate, Slysz Bowie Ti, Southard Black Blade, Stretch Carbon Fiber w/ZDP-189, Fluted Ti Native5, Terzuola Starmate, Terzuola SLIPIT, Leaf Storm, Gayle Bradley, Roadie, Chaparral CF, Chaparral Ti Stealth, Des Horn, Stretch FRN (Blue) ZDP-189, Centofante Memory, Military Black Blade CE, Delica4 FRN CE, Endura4 FRN Black Blade CE, Assist Orange FRN, Manbug ZDP-189, Ladybug 3 FRN SE, Delica4 Blue NLEOMF, Moran Drop Point BB, et al. :spyder: Spydie Fanatic #179 :spyder:
One thing I've learned, and Sal already explained, is that Spyderco produces High performance cutting tools. They are not intended for prying or hammering. If you need something that, there are much less expensive tools for that.
Spyderco really is about knives designed for efficient cutting.
They might not be the sexiest looking, but once you put one in your hand and start to use them as intended, there is really no compromise in their design.
Spyderco really is about knives designed for efficient cutting.
They might not be the sexiest looking, but once you put one in your hand and start to use them as intended, there is really no compromise in their design.
Thanks to everyone, especially Sal, for taking the time to reply. I really do appreciate it.
I understand that nothing beats a good fixed blade for abuse (digging and prying). I have a few good fixed blades including a couple Ka-Bar's and Busse's.
I guess my thinking is that there are times when I'm backpaking or hiking that I don't have a fixed blade with me, only a folder. For those times I want something that will cut well and will not dull quickly, but I also want a blade that will take some abuse or rough usage. Often times as hardness is increased and edge holding goes up, the steel becomes more brittle but I would think that some steels avoid this better than others.
I understand that Spyderco doesn't design their knives with abuse in mind but with that said, surely some steels would hold up better than others in abusive situations I would think. I'm just talking about carving wood where there might be some lateral forces on the blade or light chopping where you are cutting off branches to use for various purposes.
So, if you had several knives with the exact same blade geometry (the Military for example) and each one used a different blade steel, which would be the least likely to break a tip or fracture in some way? I'm talking just the steels that Spiderco has been known to use or has indicated they might use in the future, not something like 1095.
P.S. I haven't even received my first Spyderco yet but I'm already eyeing my second.
I understand that nothing beats a good fixed blade for abuse (digging and prying). I have a few good fixed blades including a couple Ka-Bar's and Busse's.
I guess my thinking is that there are times when I'm backpaking or hiking that I don't have a fixed blade with me, only a folder. For those times I want something that will cut well and will not dull quickly, but I also want a blade that will take some abuse or rough usage. Often times as hardness is increased and edge holding goes up, the steel becomes more brittle but I would think that some steels avoid this better than others.
I understand that Spyderco doesn't design their knives with abuse in mind but with that said, surely some steels would hold up better than others in abusive situations I would think. I'm just talking about carving wood where there might be some lateral forces on the blade or light chopping where you are cutting off branches to use for various purposes.
So, if you had several knives with the exact same blade geometry (the Military for example) and each one used a different blade steel, which would be the least likely to break a tip or fracture in some way? I'm talking just the steels that Spiderco has been known to use or has indicated they might use in the future, not something like 1095.
P.S. I haven't even received my first Spyderco yet but I'm already eyeing my second.
Hi Harrydog,
We do have a couple of knives in-the-works that were designed to take that kind of abuse. The "Tuff" mentioned earlier and two more that Eric and I are working with.
Once you get to the sizes and gometries needed to handle prying and digging, (which are both very hard on an edge), most steels are tough enough. The goal is to find one that is not only tough enough, but will keep that edge throughout.....cut relatively efficiengtly............and do you want stainless.
As mentioned, the "Tuff" uses CPM-3V. overall, probably one of the toughest steels that Crucible makes that works well for knives. Good edge retention, good toughness, not stainless.
I think that for the question you are asking in the thicker sizes and geometries, I would still feel comfortable with VG-10 and S30V, and H1 in salt water environments.
Our First M4 folder is the Gayle Bradley. We've got a couple of years use in the field and so far "real world testing" reports have been favorable. Ed Schempp is an expert and one of my teachers in blade steel and he wants to use 3V.
We changed the new Ed Schempp Rock Salt into a full flat grind VG-10 model. (Same handle, same sheath). Made for wilderness use. I think we're calling it the "Schempp Rock". Should be all the "toughness" you would need for a fairly large knife in the field.
If you are going to go out in the bush, bring your tough knife. If you can't remember to bring a tough knife, and you have to use your folder, if it's a Spyderco, you'll have to remember it's a folding knife made to cut.
I think they're tougher than you think.
sal
We do have a couple of knives in-the-works that were designed to take that kind of abuse. The "Tuff" mentioned earlier and two more that Eric and I are working with.
Once you get to the sizes and gometries needed to handle prying and digging, (which are both very hard on an edge), most steels are tough enough. The goal is to find one that is not only tough enough, but will keep that edge throughout.....cut relatively efficiengtly............and do you want stainless.
As mentioned, the "Tuff" uses CPM-3V. overall, probably one of the toughest steels that Crucible makes that works well for knives. Good edge retention, good toughness, not stainless.
I think that for the question you are asking in the thicker sizes and geometries, I would still feel comfortable with VG-10 and S30V, and H1 in salt water environments.
Our First M4 folder is the Gayle Bradley. We've got a couple of years use in the field and so far "real world testing" reports have been favorable. Ed Schempp is an expert and one of my teachers in blade steel and he wants to use 3V.
We changed the new Ed Schempp Rock Salt into a full flat grind VG-10 model. (Same handle, same sheath). Made for wilderness use. I think we're calling it the "Schempp Rock". Should be all the "toughness" you would need for a fairly large knife in the field.
If you are going to go out in the bush, bring your tough knife. If you can't remember to bring a tough knife, and you have to use your folder, if it's a Spyderco, you'll have to remember it's a folding knife made to cut.
I think they're tougher than you think.
sal
Sal,
Thanks so much for the information.
I tend to think the Gayle Bradley will be my next purchase. But I'm really interested in the "Tuff"whenever it becomes available.
Is it possible to get on a waiting list to insure that I'm able to get one, assuming that they are a limited run? I'd hate to miss out on that knife. :)
Thanks so much for the information.
I tend to think the Gayle Bradley will be my next purchase. But I'm really interested in the "Tuff"whenever it becomes available.
Is it possible to get on a waiting list to insure that I'm able to get one, assuming that they are a limited run? I'd hate to miss out on that knife. :)