Carpenter Steel Question

[tkdiver1]

Does anybody have a review on the ctx-xhp carpenter steel? I was wondering how it compared to s30v? Im also trying to get a feel for how their steels compare to that of crucibles. Are they better, worse or about the same. Please help to educate me on this. Thanks

[ChrisR]

If you search this forum you should find plenty of articles - but the name is CTS-XHP

It seems to be very well-liked generally ... I'd guess better than CPM-S30V but not sure how it would edge-hold compared to CPM-S90V :)

[Ankerson]

Should be between S30V and S90V depending on hardness.

S90V is tough to beat at 60 RC or better, it's a very small world, steels that will beat it.

[Blerv]

Sal said it's the stainless equivalent of D2 steel. Depending on what you think of D2 compared to CPM-S30v (which is far more commonly compared) that would be a fair approximation.

[Handwrecker]

So far it seems to be a smoother steel (finer grain, better finish) than CPM-S30V. It also seems to hold a hair whittling edge longer than S30V, which always seemed to lose hair whittling quickly, then hold a working edge for a long time.

I've only had it about a week, and haven't had to sharpen it yet, but just what I've noticed so far.

[Ankerson]

From Carpenters site.

[26.2Madness]

Where does S30v fit on this chart?

From Carpenters site.

[The Mastiff]

I'm not really overly enamored by that CTS alloy chart. It has the XHP, which is basicly D2 stainless as being more wear resistant than their CTS version of BG42 ( CTS B75). According to Latrobe and their charts BG42 at RC 60 is both tougher and more wear resistant than D2 at RC 62. By a fairly large amount.

CTS XHP does seem to be a bit tougher and more wear resistant than ingot D2, but I personally feel decently hard BG42 will out wear D2, and XHP as well.

As far as S30V goes I'd guess it depends on hardness to an extent. At RC 60 I'd place it as more resistant to wear than XHP due to that vanadium. That all day working edge that people talk about anyway. I'd place the wear resistance of S30V below both 204P and 20CP though.

All guessing with no real experience but trying to go by various foundry graphs and stuff. :)

In other words, I'm guessing but don't know Jack! My experience with both 390PM and 20CV leads me to believe that the similar 204P outlasts S30V, as does S90V ( and likely the similar 20CP)

Do I have a knack for confusing things or what? :)

[gt_mule]

I hope these links are allowed here. In-depth, real-world tests of XHP and 20CP:

XHP

20CP

[Ankerson]

I'm not really overly enamored by that CTS alloy chart. It has the XHP, which is basicly D2 stainless as being more wear resistant than their CTS version of BG42 ( CTS B75). According to Latrobe and their charts BG42 at RC 60 is both tougher and more wear resistant than D2 at RC 62. By a fairly large amount.

CTS XHP does seem to be a bit tougher and more wear resistant than ingot D2, but I personally feel decently hard BG42 will out wear D2, and XHP as well.

As far as S30V goes I'd guess it depends on hardness to an extent. At RC 60 I'd place it as more resistant to wear than XHP due to that vanadium. That all day working edge that people talk about anyway. I'd place the wear resistance of S30V below both 204P and 20CP though.

All guessing with no real experience but trying to go by various foundry graphs and stuff. :)

In other words, I'm guessing but don't know Jack! My experience with both 390PM and 20CV leads me to believe that the similar 204P outlasts S30V, as does S90V ( and likely the similar 20CP)

Do I have a knack for confusing things or what? :)

We won't really know for sure until we see blades in the steels.

I tested CTS-BD1 on rope and wasn't impressed with the edge holding at all on that steel compared to VG-10 and AUS-8A.

[The Mastiff]

We won't really know for sure until we see blades in the steels.

I agree completely with you Jim.

Youcan only do so much with manufacturer graphs such as these: http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/docu ... Steels.pdf

http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/docu ... Steels.pdf

( *note 14/4 steel is Latrobe's name for their version of 154cm/ats34 )

Carpenters graph with S30vs D2: http://www.crucible.com/PDFs%5CDataShee ... 202010.pdf

It's fun to read this stuff though.

Edge Retention (CATRA Testing Relative to 440C) ( from PDF)
Grade %
CPM S30V 145
154CM 120
440C 100

Note Latrobe has 20Cv at 180% in their version of this graph.

I do stand by my statements about BG42 vs. D2 though. In my experience it's more wear resistant and has better edge stability.

Another issue we seem to run into is in some cases steels with high edge stability can feel or stay sharper over what are actually more wear resistant steels in the short term due to the ( insert reason).

The high vanadium steels ( 4% and up) may not feel as sharp as say 13C , but will really pull ahead when working on such media as carpet, ropes, dirty stuff containing sand & gravel, etc.

I guess I'm saying that we collectively have a ways to go yet. That's the good news though. If we knew everything we'd lose interest. :)

[Ankerson]

I agree completely with you Jim.

Youcan only do so much with manufacturer graphs such as these: http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/docu ... Steels.pdf

http://www.latrobesteel.com/assets/docu ... Steels.pdf

( *note 14/4 steel is Latrobe's name for their version of 154cm/ats34 )

Carpenters graph with S30vs D2: http://www.crucible.com/PDFs%5CDataShee ... 202010.pdf

It's fun to read this stuff though.

Edge Retention (CATRA Testing Relative to 440C) ( from PDF)
Grade %
CPM S30V 145
154CM 120
440C 100

Note Latrobe has 20Cv at 180% in their version of this graph.

I do stand by my statements about BG42 vs. D2 though. In my experience it's more wear resistant and has better edge stability.

Another issue we seem to run into is in some cases steels with high edge stability can feel or stay sharper over what are actually more wear resistant steels in the short term due to the ( insert reason).

The high vanadium steels ( 4% and up) may not feel as sharp as say 13C , but will really pull ahead when working on such media as carpet, ropes, dirty stuff containing sand & gravel, etc.

I guess I'm saying that we collectively have a ways to go yet. That's the good news though. If we knew everything we'd lose interest. :)

I have done some rope testing and found that M390, ZDP and CPM-154 (62 RC) (Not 154cm) rock at cutting rope. That's using a scale to measure downward force and stopping at 20 LBS using slicing cuts. Checking every 20 cuts.

[jzmtl]

Pure wear resistance wise not many steels can beat S30V. Speaking from manually reprofiling on a diamond stone, not even ZDP is as much pain in the butt as S30V, and CPM D2 is quite a bit easier. VG10 is like butter compare to those.

[Ankerson]

Pure wear resistance wise not many steels can beat S30V. Speaking from manually reprofiling on a diamond stone, not even ZDP is as much pain in the butt as S30V, and CPM D2 is quite a bit easier. VG10 is like butter compare to those.

Depends on how hard S30V is on the RC scale.

Take S30V much under 60 RC and it feels like butter, but at +60 RC it's a lot better and will do what it's supposed to do.

There is a huge difference in S30V at 58 RC and 62 RC.

Even with S30V at 62 RC ZDP-189, M390, and CPM-154 (62 RC) (that's not 154cm) will kill it in edge retention, it's not even close.

Once I get the Para 2 Sprints I will enter them in my testing database cutting rope, it will be intersting to see how CPM S90V and CTS-20P compare.