Has anyone tested just how stainless vg-10 really is? Also how soft is h-1 really?

[dirtpig67]

Would it matter? Might it not possibly be advantageous, at least for some tasks, to have a softer core underneath a harder exterior? From a practical standpoint, H-1 hass been "field tested" on Spyderco knives for six years now and most of those who use it seem to appreciate it for its rust resistance. More than a few have also said it approaches VG-10 in edge holding.

What I was trying to get at is when you sharpen a H1 blade to you "sharpen off" all of the work-hardened steel when you sharpen it as when you sharpen you are removing material from the edge.

Or does the hardening process go deeper into the steel as to not completely remove it when sharpening.

I am pretty sure it is the latter, but if you had a serious nick or roll (as I have done a couple of times with a PE H1 blade) of the edge you could potentially be removing a fair amount of metal from the edge when you sharpen that out.

[The Deacon]

What I was trying to get at is when you sharpen a H1 blade to you "sharpen off" all of the work-hardened steel when you sharpen it as when you sharpen you are removing material from the edge.

Or does the hardening process go deeper into the steel as to not completely remove it when sharpening.

I am pretty sure it is the latter, but if you had a serious nick or roll (as I have done a couple of times with a PE H1 blade) of the edge you could potentially be removing a fair amount of metal from the edge when you sharpen that out.

My understanding has always been that the sharpening process is what work hardens H-1. The assertion has always been that edge holding improves with use and resharpening.

[Ski]

My understanding has always been that the sharpening process is what work hardens H-1. The assertion has always been that edge holding improves with use and resharpening.

You're correct.

I know this, because H1 is pretty much impossible to roll, even after being sharpened.

[chuck_roxas45]

Still no numbers?

[Ski]

68 on a Spyder Edge.

Less on a plain, like 63 I want to say. This is all easily accessible info that has been on the forums for ages.

[dsmegst]

I've always felt that H-1, as remarkable as it is with corrosion resistance, was never as sharp or had the edge retention compared to other steels. Well, here's my apology to H-1 and my Salt 1.

[chuck_roxas45]

68 on a Spyder Edge.

Less on a plain, like 63 I want to say. This is all easily accessible info that has been on the forums for ages.

Does that mean it's harder than the S30V Spyderco uses? :confused:

[Ski]

Does that mean it's harder than the S30V Spyderco uses? :confused:

Yup.

Bear in mind this only means it won't roll as readily..It doesn't mean it will hold an edge longer. S30V is better in that regard, it has nasty carbides.

It can be sharpened to what I refer to as "stupid sharp"

It's one degree after "scary"

[chuck_roxas45]

Yup.

Bear in mind this only means it won't roll as readily..It doesn't mean it will hold an edge longer. S30V is better in that regard, it has nasty carbides.

It can be sharpened to what I refer to as "stupid sharp"

It's one degree after "scary"

I wonder how it got the reputation of being soft when it's harder than most of the blades Spyderco uses. :confused:

Harder than VG-10 and S30V and it's still soft? :rolleyes:

[Ski]

I wonder how it got the reputation of being soft when it's harder than most of the blades Spyderco uses. :confused:

Harder than VG-10 and S30V and it's still soft? :rolleyes:

It's not soft.

It doesn't hold an edge as well as VG10.

It's still a hard steel.

[chuck_roxas45]

What steel would you say it compares to, in edge retention?

[jossta]

I have VERY little knowledge on this, but isn't the heat caused by the friction of "working" the knife harden it? If so, the heat generated must go deeper than just the shallow surface area being removed, correct?

[Ski]

What steel would you say it compares to, in edge retention?

Honestly, I think a good comparison to H1 is Buck's 420HC. Similarly easy to sharpen, both take razor sharp edges. 420 rolls instead of abrading, so it is very different in that respect, but the end result on paper cut tests is the same.

AUS8 is probably marginally worse than H1. This speaks a lot for H1, as AUS8 is a rather rusty steel, and its not nearly as tough when it comes to abuse. This is in my experience. Ankerson loves the stuff and would probably heartily disagree.

[Ski]

I have VERY little knowledge on this, but isn't the heat caused by the friction of "working" the knife harden it? If so, the heat generated must go deeper than just the shallow surface area being removed, correct?

No. Otherwise you could hold the knife between your buttcheeks and get it a lot hotter. :D :p

It's "plastic deformation" that causes the work hardening. For example, holding the knife between your buttcheeks and clenching really hard! :)

[Antonio_Luiz]

68 on a Spyder Edge.

Less on a plain, like 63 I want to say. This is all easily accessible info that has been on the forums for ages.

Some steels like S30V have been reported to display age hardening - ie it show improved edge retention just from sitting in a drawer. H1 is supposed to develop work hardening from being sharpened. I have not had personal exerience of H1 edge hardening and presume it is similar to the hardening effect from cold-working steel. If you repeatedly bend and unbend a piece of fence wire or a coat hanger, it will become stiffer and stiffer (harder), then eventually so brittle and fatigued that it breaks.

But even so - are you saying H1 = RC 68? :eek: I very much doubt this. 55RC is often considered a good hardness for a "beater". With the better steels now available, many utility knives are in the 57-58 range and the trend is heading towards ~60. Some specialty knives as exemplified by Japanese chef slicing knives are 64-66, but these usually have very fragile edges that tend to chip easily.

Rule of thumb
Low RC = tough, high RC = brittle.
The better steels when properly heat treated can still be tough at higher RC's and this is why they are considered premium steels

To confuse the issue, Dave Martell (Japanese Knife Sharpening Services) says that some edges will develop metal fatigue from use. This weakened material must be removed to expose fresh steel for the knife to work properly again

[Ski]

Some steels like S30V have been reported to display age hardening - ie it show improved edge retention just from sitting in a drawer. H1 is supposed to develop work hardening from being sharpened. I have not had personal exerience of H1 edge hardening and presume it is similar to the hardening effect from cold-working steel. If you repeatedly bend and unbend a piece of fence wire or a coat hanger, it will become stiffer and stiffer (harder), then eventually so brittle and fatigued that it breaks.

But even so - are you saying H1 = RC 68? :eek: I very much doubt this. 55RC is often considered a good hardness for a "beater". With the better steels now available, many utility knives are in the 57-58 range and the trend is heading towards ~60. Some specialty knives as exemplified by Japanese chef slicing knives are 64-66, but these usually have very fragile edges that tend to chip easily.

Rule of thumb
Low RC = tough, high RC = brittle.
The better steels when properly heat treated can still be tough at higher RC's and this is why they are considered premium steels

To confuse the issue, Dave Martell (Japanese Knife Sharpening Services) says that some edges will develop metal fatigue from use. This weakened material must be removed to expose fresh steel for the knife to work properly again

Those are numbers from Crucible's testing.

H1 ends up being differentially tough, so as a whole, the blade does not get weak.

I don't have problems with chipping or rolling on my H1 knives. I cut mostly sandy, nasty high-tech sailboat lines. This just abrades the crap out of knives. H1 is pretty bad in this regard, no carbides. Serrations help, they are like huge carbides! :D

I don't use my PE H1 knives anymore, the serrated one works so much better for my needs. I never had chipping on the PE ones though.

Age hardening sounds ridiculously gimmicky to me, even moreso than H1 improving from plastic deformation.

I trust Crucible's numbers. It would be lunacy for them to release false numbers that high, especially when Takefu (I think) is making the steel!

H1 is a super steel. Unlike all other super steels, it's very heavily weighted on hardness and toughness with bad abrasion resistance. S90V is tougher at the edge, marginally softer, but lightyears ahead in abrasion resistance. It also rusts..Take your pick.

[scout]

My guess is, the pressure on the edge from the sharpening action will work harden the steel a bit deeper than the surface, where steel is being removed.

I love my salt, but I feel that there is not a lot of increase in hardness from sharpening that we should make a big deal about.

[Antonio_Luiz]

Those are numbers from Crucible's testing.

Links please

I am unable to find any reference to these steels in the Crucible Steel website

[Ben_1323]

I love my salt, but I feel that there is not a lot of increase in hardness from sharpening that we should make a big deal about.

You're probably right about that. Even if there was a significant difference, it wouldn't happen in one sharpening session, it would probably take many sharpenings and it would eventually reach its maximum hardness over time.

Regarding H-1 hardness, I always thought it was below 60. It is relatively soft (scratches very easily in my experience) but that doesn't mean it isn't tough. A softer blade is generally more tough than a harder one because it is less brittle.

Of course, different steels have varying properties (some can be both tough and hard) but in my experience, H-1 has been tough but soft.

I'd like to see the data that found H-1 in the 63-68 RC range. That's much higher than I would have expected. The only other steel that comes close to that is ZDP-189, which is vastly different than H-1 in composition.

[chuck_roxas45]

Links please

I am unable to find any reference to these steels in the Crucible Steel website

Yeah, that'd be nice.

Isn't there anybody who has a rockwell test kit or access to one?