Anti-knife hysteria

[jzmtl]

A three inch blade at ten feet is capeable of being extremely dangerous! As others have indicated already, the Tueller Drill has demonstrated the dangers of an opponent armed with a knife within 21 feet.

There are probably many more variables present here that we are not privy to and considering the way the media likes to twist stories, I'm confident that the situation likely warranted the officers response.

Capable of being, and is, are far from the same thing. So far there is zero evidence showing the "is" part, even witness recount tells the completely opposite.

[Jordan]

Witnesses do not equal participants. When I'm loading my revolver, an observer behind me might thing that I'm adjusting my belt. An observer in the forward aspect, on the other hand, will note that I am emptying a speedloader into a S&W M66. Assuming that the witness quoted in the article was totally non biased, there is still that fact to contend with. I have my own bias... and I won't deny that. That bias tells me that a man who was accepted into the police force of a major metropolitan area deserves the benefit of a doubt more than a man convicted of felonious indecent exposure.

I'm inclined to think that the Deacon is right. My strictly law and order approach will end up being as incorrect as the bleeding heart approach espoused by others. The truth will lie somewhere in between.

I will say this... and take it for what it's worth... as a soldier, if an Iraqi or Afghani crossed the 6 meter barrier with a naked blade I'd kill him. There is no doubt in my mind. Deaf, blind, dumb or stupid... he'd have a plethora of .223 caliber holes in his torso before he got within 5 meters of me.

[The General]

Without seeing the video recorded by the officers car, I would be very reluctant to comment.

I sounds like a terrible case of a trigger happy cop, but how can anyone pass judgement without the full facts?

[Phrenik]

Well to give you guys perspective In the past 6 months or so there have been almost a dozen cops [give or take] killed [but by guns so you may call my statement moot], which may have also led to the cop being more anxious. A dozen give or take [i dont keep count I just know there have been an overly copious amount of dead policemen due to a, well criminal now,] cops killed in half a year may not seem like a lot to some states, but for our state it is quite a big number. Just saying. Not taking either side.

[dsmegst]

I'm inclined to think that the Deacon is right. My strictly law and order approach will end up being as incorrect as the bleeding heart approach espoused by others. The truth will lie somewhere in between.

I will say this... and take it for what it's worth... as a soldier, if an Iraqi or Afghani crossed the 6 meter barrier with a naked blade I'd kill him. There is no doubt in my mind. Deaf, blind, dumb or stupid... he'd have a plethora of .223 caliber holes in his torso before he got within 5 meters of me.

First and foremost, thank you for your service.

I appreciate the difficult position LEOs often find themselves, having to balance personal safety against the intricacies of performing their jobs. But we're talking about two completely different environments here. One is an active combat zone and this is an urban area in the US of A.

And as many have said, we don't know the full story and what really went on but my initial reaction is still :eek: and :mad: .

[Evil D]

I think, as with most of these incidents, the truth lies somewhere between the extremes. Those who knew the man will portray him as totally innocent and harmless, those who think the police can do no wrong will portray him as a dangerous maniac.

Reports I read did seem to indicate he got up and began moving toward the officer, with an open knife in his hand. That may be understandable to someone who knew that he was deaf, fairly well known in the area, and someone who eked out a meager living carving and selling small wooden objects to buy food and booze. On the other hand, to a cop not necessarily in possession of that background information, he became simply and armed individual who, instead of complying with instructions, was coming toward him with a knife.

Always easier to second guess a situation like that from the comfort of your living room than to deal with it in the flesh. Easy for folks to say the cop over reacted but, unlike the movies, people don't fly ten feet backward, or spin around and fall down when hit by a bullet. Lots of times, they don't react at all, they just keep coming.

I agree with most of what you say here, but i see no reason why the cop couldn't have put one in his leg and brought him down, and left it at that, instead if dealing 4 lethal shots and killing the guy. If the man simply got up and walked towards him, as in not get up and charge at him with the knife (which totally warrants lethal defense IMO) then there's no reason to shoot the guy 4 times. I'm sure he dropped after the first shot.

[jabba359]

Witnesses are unreliable at best. While the officer shot from about 9 feet away, the witness says he was "at least two car-lengths" away. Even if we use the Smart car as the car of measurement, that's 16.5 feet (nearly twice the distance). If we use a more normal length car, like the Toyota Corolla, two car lengths are 29 feet, which puts her estimate as being over three times the actual distance. 9 feet and 29 feet are two completely different distances that shouldn't be easily confused.

Report also says the man was sitting on the wall, yet she says he "was standing with his back to her". She then flourishes her statement with a bit of hyperbole by saying that he "kind of slowly, sort of gracefully and elegantly, [fell] to the ground" when shot. Yes, the laws of physics changed right when he was shot and gravity was reduced so that he could plummet in a slow-motion, ballet-like death, just like in the movies!

People can conjecture all they want about how they think the police officer should have reacted, but these conclusions are coming from people lounging around in their leather arm-chairs with lots of time to ponder whilst sipping on a whipped cappuccino in their air-conditioned easy room. This officer was in a completely different situation, location, and under significantly different time constrains for making a decision that may or may not have saved his life. I'm not saying he made the right decision, as we don't know enough details, only that we need to understand the context in which it was made.

[The Deacon]

I agree with most of what you say here, but i see no reason why the cop couldn't have put one in his leg and brought him down, and left it at that, instead if dealing 4 lethal shots and killing the guy. If the man simply got up and walked towards him, as in not get up and charge at him with the knife (which totally warrants lethal defense IMO) then there's no reason to shoot the guy 4 times. I'm sure he dropped after the first shot.

Police are not trained to shoot legs, they're trained to aim for center of mass. The leg of a moving person is particularly easy to miss, since it's relatively narrow and moves a LOT more than a torso. A miss gives the threat time to close the distance between him and you.

Aside from a head shot, I don't agree about a single shot dropping someone, regardless of placement. Know of one case in particular, forty odd years ago, where a guy took six "department issue" .38 slugs to the chest and shoulder, two hitting one lung, one hitting the other, one hitting the heart and lodging in the spine. He still managed to close with the officer and push him off a roof. Cases like that are why cops are trained to shoot until the person is no longer a threat. In the heat of the moment, it may be a bit much to expect an officer to differentiate between a person who is continuing to advance in a threatening manner and someone who's simply staggering forward.

Again, we will never know what really happened. I'm just more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to a cop than to a homeless alcoholic with a criminal record. Yes, the cop may have over reacted, but having never been in the position where I had a fraction of a second to make a life or death decision, I'll refrain from judging him.

[gac]

I'll trust a trained officer who participated in the shooting over a passerby who saw a only part of the event. This is why all officer shootings across the U.S. get investigated. Remember that a news article will cover only a sliver of what occurred.

I'm quite surprised that members of a knife forum dismiss the notion of a three inch blades lethality. Is this not a forum where members regularly post about how wicked sharp they can get their blades? Or, how they are accidentally "bitten" by a knife, and even a glancing swipe leaves a deep cut? Imagine one of those sharp knives purposefully swing or stabbed at you. As Deacon wrote above, an attacker can receive several rounds and still have plenty of time to kill you before bleeding out.

[Water Bug]

Hmmm... let's change the shooter...

A mother of three pulled her handgun (yes, she has a Concealed Handgun Permit) and shot a man (who was later found to have a criminal record) several times as he approached her and her three little girls with a three-inch knife in his hand. When repeated demands of the mother for the man to keep away went unheeded, she emptied all six rounds into his chest and shot him dead because she felt the lives of her and her daughters were in danger.

So, are you going to accuse her of being a "trigger-happy" mother?

The full, accurate, complete, and truthful story MUST be heard. Whatever happened to, "innocent until proven guilty?"

[TrojanDonkey]

Hmmm... let's change the shooter...

A mother of three pulled her handgun (yes, she has a Concealed Handgun Permit) and shot a man (who was later found to have a criminal record) several times as he approached her and her three little girls with a three-inch knife in his hand. When repeated demands of the mother for the man to keep away went unheeded, she emptied all six rounds into his chest and shot him dead because she felt the lives of her and her daughters were in danger.

So, are you going to accuse her of being a "trigger-happy" mother?

The full, accurate, complete, and truthful story MUST be heard. Whatever happened to, "innocent until proven guilty?"

When your life is on the line(or other innocent people) shoot first and ask questions tends to be the way most people would react.Sorry he could not hear good but if I was deaf and a gun was pointed towards me I would have dropped the knife.I want to see videos and toxicology reports.I tend to side with the police most of the time.There is of course exceptions.

[gac]

A similar situation where an officer is faced against a knife holder. Video shows how quick the guy with the knife covered ground.

http://bit.ly/bEfVMw

[Water Bug]

A similar situation where an officer is faced against a knife holder. Video shows how quick the guy with the knife covered ground.

http://bit.ly/bEfVMw

****! Thank you for sharing that video.

One, maybe two more steps and the guy would've been on the police officer. The officer warned the guy repeatedly and "two tapped" him (as he should) when approached. Even then the guy was still up and in close proximity, and it seemed the knife was still in his hand (since another police officer had to kick it away from his hand as he laid there on the ground).

Substitute a less powerful caliber of ammunition against a guy under the influence of a drug and the officer could've been killed before the guy ever fell dead.

Again, there needs to be a thorough investigation to gather all of the facts as to what happened. Until then, the police officer is innocent until proven guilty. Recommend we all cut the police officer some slack.

[gac]

An attacker can be more than just drunk or drugged. An attacker can be mentally ill, suicidal, or consumed with rage and will carry on an attack even through he is shot, stabbed, bludgeoned, etc.

[fifthprofession47]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWmRWjDhYw