Manix 2 lock fails hard-use test [VID] -- thoughts?

[RFL]

Very good demonstrations, Jim. Hard use depends on the design of the tool, not the marketing.

What are you going to do when you use up the rest of that rotting log?

[Evil D]

It's funny because i was just in Bass Pro Shop this past weekend and wanted to check out one of those other knives but couldn't get any help at the counter. I love my Spydies but i'm surely not a brand junky. I will say though i have a lot of confidence that if there's something that can be improved on with this knife, the guys at Golden will see that it happens, and that's why i own and will own more Spydies than anything else.

[Ankerson]

Very good demonstrations, Jim. Hard use depends on the design of the tool, not the marketing.

What are you going to do when you use up the rest of that rotting log?

Thanks. :)

It will take me awhile to go through it yet. :D

If a knife is marketed as a hard use knife it is on my list and will possibly be tested, or even if it's hyped as hard use.

It's funny because i was just in Bass Pro Shop this past weekend and wanted to check out one of those other knives but couldn't get any help at the counter. I love my Spydies but i'm surely not a brand junky. I will say though i have a lot of confidence that if there's something that can be improved on with this knife, the guys at Golden will see that it happens, and that's why i own and will own more Spydies than anything else.

I am sure They will figure something out or at the very least let me know something.

Eric and Sal Glesser are great guys and they know what they are doing. :D

[chuck_roxas45]

I do think that we should find out what went wrong instead of hiding our heads in the sand. I love my manix 2 as much as the next guy but since( I hope the day never comes) I might have to use in for SD, I would like it be as strong from all directions as possible. I would not want a failure to happen when SHTF.

If that was a fluke, as I think it was, then hurrah. OTOH, if there is an inherent weakness in the design, then I hope that close examination will show what it is, and I hope will be corrected. If, however, examination shows it as a limitation of the M2 and there will be no mods forthcoming, then I will still love my M2 as an awesome EDC knowing full well it's limitations.

I love my dog, he can't talk. That's his limitation. I don't love him less for it.

[JNewell]

I love my dog, he can't talk. That's his limitation. I don't love him less for it.

I love mine, too...and :D ...I don't do things that would "break" her training and make her bite me. :)

[Pharmagator]

Toads don't fail...

[THG]

Ok so one knife can take an overly abusive beating better than another knife can take an overly abusive beating.

Exactly.

The end result IMO is that all the tests are a bit extreme for a folder.

Exactly.

I'll tip my hat to the knives that handled the test better but i guarantee you if you keep repeating the test that eventually any folder will fail given enough of this harsh treatment.

Exactly. When you test crash a car, do you do things that aren't going to wreck it?

The WHOLE POINT is to push the knives far and beyond their limits and see at which point it fails. Of course, the further to the right of the starting point, the better. But like a test crash, things ARE going to break!

But i promise if i ever need to cut through 2x4s and find some practical application for beating the spine of my knife against a hard surface, i'll look into buying the other knives that handled those tasks better.

Oh...or maybe i'll just use the right tool for the job...like say a fixed blade or a hatchet.

If it's convenient, of course. What if you fall into a desperate situation and you don't have a choice? That fixed blade or axe isn't going to do you any good sitting at home. Better have that handy folder that you're carrying with you at all times that happens to be able to take some abuse.

By the way, if you need to baton with a folder, you unlock it and leave it limp while you do it. This way you don't harm the lock.

i just feel like it's a lot to ask of a folder.

Exactly the point... Here's a little illustration:



Where do you want your knife to lie on that line? If you're doing a test, do you want to stop at the "Normal EDC Use" point and say, "Yay! It passed! All done!" Or do you want to say, "Cool, it passed that test. Now what else can I throw at it... Cool, passed that one too. What else can I throw at it..." and see how far to the right it can go?

I think we can all agree that the further to the right of the line a knife can go, the better.

I do think that we should find out what went wrong instead of hiding our heads in the sand.

I couldn't agree more. This is the time to find out what happened and make it better. It is not time to make excuses. The fact of the matter is that the knife broke, and we don't want to see it happen again. The only way to do that is to discuss and design.

[Ankerson]

Cool Post. :D

[bchan]

This is the time to find out what happened and make it better. It is not time to make excuses. The fact of the matter is that the knife broke, and we don't want to see it happen again. The only way to do that is to discuss and design.

x 2.

And may I add that the fact of the matter is that we care so much for our knives that we would welcome any opportunity to refine/improve it even further...otherwise there is no need for a version 2 of the Paramilitary and the like.

[MountainManJim]

Ankerson,

I think what you are doing with your tests is great. It sounds like you are honestly trying to test the knives in a consistent and similar manner. One thing that I’ve seen in a few posts and in my own, is an opportunity for you to improve your tests.

Typically in product testing, you want to start any test with parts that are too spec. Otherwise you are not testing the design of a product. Instead, you are testing how are particular defect effects the performance of the design but, it’s not the same as testing the design as designed.

For instance, a loose pivot screw is a condition that is not to spec. The screw should be tighten before conducting a test or replaced if the screw has failed. Conducting a test with a loose screw is like taking a car to a test track with worn tires and not expecting the wet stopping distances to be horrible.

I should point out that, a loose pivot screw and/or excessive play could be considered a failure of any of your test. One thing to think about is that parts do not fail just by breaking or failing to function. Parts also failing due to excessive deflections. I’m assuming the knife in questioned developed excessive play due to the pivot screw backed-off. That’s a possible failure. Possible because s pivot screw becoming loose kind of sits on the fence. It could be perfectly acceptable that the owners of the knives expected to be responsible for keeping the pivot screw tighten, similar to the responsibilities they have for maintaining their cars. So, assuming the pivot did loosen, I think your test provided some real value in demonstrating that it’s possible that after some hard use, the pivot of the Manix can loosen and should be tighten. Note to self, check Manix pivot screw torque.

What I really would have like to have learned from your test was what caused the blade play; was the pivot screw loose? And, did the play cause the lock failure?

That brings me to the suggestion that you consider blade play as a more important issue during the whittling test. If you discover play after the test, examine the knife and tight the pivot to see if the play can be removed without have to lock-up the blade. If the play is removed, great on to the next test. If the play persists, you may be done with the testing if you feel that the play is too excessive. That could be hard to determine so, you could also continue the testing (whacking tests) with the tightened pivot to see it the play is significant enough to affect the locking mechanism. Fortunately, at this point you have ruled a simple issue like loose screws. If the knife fails the spine whack, you may have discovered a larger problem with the knife, possibly with its’ design or manufacture. But, to make that conclusion, you really need to rule out the little stuff like loose screws, debris in the lock, etc.

One question I have for you is, did you attempt to tighten the pivot and repeat the spine whack test on the Manix?

So, I hope you consider this humble suggestion and I hope you continue to bring us knife enthusiast your valuable test results. Every test teaches us something, especially the failed tests.

Jim

[Ankerson]

Ankerson,

I think what you are doing with your tests is great. It sounds like you are honestly trying to test the knives in a consistent and similar manner. One thing that I’ve seen in a few posts and in my own, is an opportunity for you to improve your tests.

Typically in product testing, you want to start any test with parts that are too spec. Otherwise you are not testing the design of a product. Instead, you are testing how are particular defect effects the performance of the design but, it’s not the same as testing the design as designed.

For instance, a loose pivot screw is a condition that is not to spec. The screw should be tighten before conducting a test or replaced if the screw has failed. Conducting a test with a loose screw is like taking a car to a test track with worn tires and not expecting the wet stopping distances to be horrible.

I should point out that, a loose pivot screw and/or excessive play could be considered a failure of any of your test. One thing to think about is that parts do not fail just by breaking or failing to function. Parts also failing due to excessive deflections. I’m assuming the knife in questioned developed excessive play due to the pivot screw backed-off. That’s a possible failure. Possible because s pivot screw becoming loose kind of sits on the fence. It could be perfectly acceptable that the owners of the knives expected to be responsible for keeping the pivot screw tighten, similar to the responsibilities they have for maintaining their cars. So, assuming the pivot did loosen, I think your test provided some real value in demonstrating that it’s possible that after some hard use, the pivot of the Manix can loosen and should be tighten. Note to self, check Manix pivot screw torque.

What I really would have like to have learned from your test was what caused the blade play; was the pivot screw loose? And, did the play cause the lock failure?

That brings me to the suggestion that you consider blade play as a more important issue during the whittling test. If you discover play after the test, examine the knife and tight the pivot to see if the play can be removed without have to lock-up the blade. If the play is removed, great on to the next test. If the play persists, you may be done with the testing if you feel that the play is too excessive. That could be hard to determine so, you could also continue the testing (whacking tests) with the tightened pivot to see it the play is significant enough to affect the locking mechanism. Fortunately, at this point you have ruled a simple issue like loose screws. If the knife fails the spine whack, you may have discovered a larger problem with the knife, possibly with its’ design or manufacture. But, to make that conclusion, you really need to rule out the little stuff like loose screws, debris in the lock, etc.

One question I have for you is, did you attempt to tighten the pivot and repeat the spine whack test on the Manix?

So, I hope you consider this humble suggestion and I hope you continue to bring us knife enthusiast your valuable test results. Every test teaches us something, especially the failed tests.

Jim

Yes I did tighten up the screws after the video was done. :)

When I retested it the knife still failed with the screws tightened and after the 4th hit the lock jammed open. I gave it a 2nd chance because I felt that it failed way too easy the 1st time.

So in effect it wouldn't have made any difference IMO.

Once Eric gets to look at the knife and sees what is wrong with it ect we will know more. Until then it's only speculation to what might have been wrong or if the knife was defective or not.

If he finds the knife was defective and wants to send me another one then I will do a retest on video stating the issue with the 1st test knife. The 2nd test if there is one will be done exactly like the 1st one.

The Manix 2 was the only knife to fail so far and I tested all of them the same way. Anything else would have slanted the test and shown bias and the whole thing would have ment nothing and been a complete waste of time.

If I would have stopped the test it would have shown a clear bias towards the M2 over all the other knives.

I do understand this is the Spyderco forum and most of you here aren't happy that the M2 failed. But again you must understand that the test is done equally across the board for all of the knives that have been and will be tested in the future.

The last knife I tested was a CS Voyager, a standard lock Back with no liners and a FRN handle that can't be tightened because it doesn't have any screws. Yes it loosened up, but it didn't fail the tests. It was tested as a control knife to show what could happen to a standard lock back if it's pushed.

[Evil D]

THG,

If you feel you're that in danger of finding yourself in a life or death situation where a folder is your life line, i would suggest sticking with carrying a fixed blade 100% of the time. If we all boil this down to absolutely having to carry the absolute strongest thing possible, then that's your answer. We can debate about this forever but the bottom line is that the other folder that passed the test is still inferior to a fixed blade, so whatever point you're trying to make is moot due to the fact that if you truly feel that much in jeopardy carrying a folder, you should just carry a fixed blade.

I guess i'm screwed no matter what because i'm pretty sure all of the knives tested are longer than the law allows me to carry unless i'm hunting/camping/hiking etc, in which case i AM allowed to carry a nice big fixed blade, which is what i'd be doing to begin with. I guess if my car ever careens off a cliff somewhere and all i'm left to save myself with is my Caly 3, that little sucker better hold up or i'm dead meat :D

[chuck_roxas45]

Isn't there a logical argument fallacy that takes an argument to absurd situations to make a reasonable proposition sound silly?

[dsmegst]

Now if I had 3 of each knife, I would do the same test with each knife. :)

I understand that not everyone will be happy with every test that I do, but this is what I have and what I am doing. :)

Yeah, I completely understand. Just so you know, I do Quality Assurance at work so I'm a bit anal about testing. Like I said, you need multiple copies of the same knife to do the sort of testing I would do. I'm just trying to think of ways to do it with one knife.

[Ankerson]

Yeah, I completely understand. Just so you know, I do Quality Assurance at work so I'm a bit anal about testing. Like I said, you need multiple copies of the same knife to do the sort of testing I would do. I'm just trying to think of ways to do it with one knife.

I still think it was odd that it failed so easy, why that happened is anyones guess at this point.

Oh yeah I would like to have had 3 of every knife to test, but until I either win the Lottery or Companies start sending me knives that's not going to happen.

[davibocce]

THG great post. I tried to make the same point in my post http://spyderco.com/forums/showpost.php ... stcount=93

Sure ideally you would want to carry a fixed blade. But some of us cannot legally do that. I am in California - carrying a fixed blade concealed is illegal here. However, living in CA, and not able to carry a fixed blade, does not mean bad situation can never happen to me or my family.

That's why I carry a Manix 2 for EDC and emergency use.

That's why I am interested in hard use tests done on folding knives.

[JNewell]

I still think it was odd that it failed so easy, why that happened is anyones guess at this point.

Oh yeah I would like to have had 3 of every knife to test, but until I either win the Lottery or Companies start sending me knives that's not going to happen.

Question - there is another YT video showing spinewhacks on an M2 in which the lock holds. It wasn't preceded by heavy cutting tasks or overstrikes, which could be all the difference - but the point of my question is whether there's anything about that video and your experience that suggests that the different results are possibly related to the specific knife rather than related to the different workouts given to the knives? This is a purely informational question - I'm not trying to argue/dispute/whatever. :)

[Ankerson]

Question - there is another YT video showing spinewhacks on an M2 in which the lock holds. It wasn't preceded by heavy cutting tasks or overstrikes, which could be all the difference - but the point of my question is whether there's anything about that video and your experience that suggests that the different results are possibly related to the specific knife rather than related to the different workouts given to the knives? This is a purely informational question - I'm not trying to argue/dispute/whatever. :)

That one was a joke, like tapping your finger on the table, I can hit my SAK that hard all day and it won't fail. LOL

It doesn't mean anything IMO.

Bottom line is still this and it won't change:

I won't know why it failed until I hear back from Eric Glesser once he inspects the knife, nor will anyone else for that matter... Only then will the truth of what really happened be known. Anything at this point is pure speculation because I and Spyderco don't have the facts yet.

I draw no conclusions of why it happened, nor have I in any of my posts on any forum.

Whatever either Sal or Eric Glesser say the facts are that's what they are. :)

[noodlefish]

i watched the video and proceeded to spine whack my pink user hard.
no failure and no play in the lock. just my $0.02

[Ankerson]

i watched the video and proceeded to spine whack my pink user hard.
no failure and no play in the lock. just my $0.02

It was a knife test.

Not just spine whacks....