I enjoy these tests, and they do make a difference when I pick the knives I'm going to buy.
Saying that, one knife in one test isn't a reliable sample and we should take this with a pinch of salt until we know more.
Manix 2 lock fails hard-use test [VID] -- thoughts?
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Franciscomv
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What is it with Spine whack test's? The only thing it proves is you are trying to use the wrong side of the blade to cut......of course the dull side isn't going to cut well! :) really the test proves nothing.Most knives weren't designed to have pressure applied to them in that way. Not trying to brag on a Manix II, but i have bored holes through wood with mine,cut shingles etc, and never had a problem with the lock.Plus i don't believe it is humanly possible to crush a ball bearing, i don't care how strong you are.
V8R
Opinions are like belly buttons most people have one:p
Opinions are like belly buttons most people have one:p
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Pinetreebbs
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It's a Knife
Interesting test, but I have wood chisels I would not use in that way.
A fairly thin slicing blade suits my EDC needs. I don't need or want to carry a "zombie killer" knife. :D
A tool for every purpose and a purpose for every tool. :spyder:
Knife, an instrument for cutting, consisting essentially of a thin, sharp-edged, metal blade fitted with a handle.
Axe, an instrument with a bladed head on a handle or helve, used for hewing, cleaving, chopping, etc.
Chisel, a wedgelike tool with a cutting edge at the end of the blade, often made of steel, used for cutting or shaping wood, stone, etc.
A fairly thin slicing blade suits my EDC needs. I don't need or want to carry a "zombie killer" knife. :D
A tool for every purpose and a purpose for every tool. :spyder:
Knife, an instrument for cutting, consisting essentially of a thin, sharp-edged, metal blade fitted with a handle.
Axe, an instrument with a bladed head on a handle or helve, used for hewing, cleaving, chopping, etc.
Chisel, a wedgelike tool with a cutting edge at the end of the blade, often made of steel, used for cutting or shaping wood, stone, etc.
Looks to me like the knife developed critical blade play from carving up a 2x2. I do that sort of thing with my Pacific Salt which no one would call a "hard use" knife compared to the Manix 2.
The next "test" is over strikes and spine whacks. I would guess that a properly adjusted Manix 2 would not fail from those actions. I am not sure what it demonstrates either...once it fails, the "test" is over...repeatedly defeating the lock seems silly once you demonstrate that what you observed actually happened.
The next "test" is over strikes and spine whacks. I would guess that a properly adjusted Manix 2 would not fail from those actions. I am not sure what it demonstrates either...once it fails, the "test" is over...repeatedly defeating the lock seems silly once you demonstrate that what you observed actually happened.
Thanks,
Ken (my real name)
...learning something new all the time.
Ken (my real name)
...learning something new all the time.
While I do agree this is not something I would carry a knife for, it is conceivable that you would find yourself in a situation where such tasks need to be performed and your EDC is all you have with you. In such a circumstance, it's very good to have an idea what your knife is capable of. To that end, I thoroughly enjoyed the video.
And while it's possible, I truly don't think this knife was a "lemon". It behaved pretty much as I'd expect (although, I was a little surprised by the degree of blade play that developed with what I perceived as minimal lateral stress)
The two things I took away were:
1. Lateral stress did loosen the pivot. Obviouly, not something you would want to do routinely, but when TSHTF, at least you understand the consequences.
2. It seems to me that the lock didn't "fail" in the typical structural sense of the word, but rather that the impact caused the ball to jump out of the locked position. Probably exacerbated by the loosened pivot. Another example of what not to do but, again, good to understand the consequences. A stronger spring might have overcome this but at a cost of being much more difficult to disengage the lock in routine use. Not a trade I want to make.
The bottom line for me - while I feel a bit smarter, it won't change how I feel about either knife or change what I buy, given my anticipated use. A Manix 2 is way overkill (lock wise) for anything I'm likely to use a knife for. In fact, a UKPK has been performing quite nicely with no lock at all.
Thanks for linking the video!
Ken
And while it's possible, I truly don't think this knife was a "lemon". It behaved pretty much as I'd expect (although, I was a little surprised by the degree of blade play that developed with what I perceived as minimal lateral stress)
The two things I took away were:
1. Lateral stress did loosen the pivot. Obviouly, not something you would want to do routinely, but when TSHTF, at least you understand the consequences.
2. It seems to me that the lock didn't "fail" in the typical structural sense of the word, but rather that the impact caused the ball to jump out of the locked position. Probably exacerbated by the loosened pivot. Another example of what not to do but, again, good to understand the consequences. A stronger spring might have overcome this but at a cost of being much more difficult to disengage the lock in routine use. Not a trade I want to make.
The bottom line for me - while I feel a bit smarter, it won't change how I feel about either knife or change what I buy, given my anticipated use. A Manix 2 is way overkill (lock wise) for anything I'm likely to use a knife for. In fact, a UKPK has been performing quite nicely with no lock at all.
Thanks for linking the video!
Ken
玉鋼
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mikerestivo
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Handwrecker
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In my mind, that doesn't seem like much abuse. I've definitely had a BM Rift that I've torqued harder than that, with no blade play developing/lock not failing. Same steel, similar lock, similar knife design(G10, steel liners, hollow grind). Also, it doesn't look like he's hitting the spine that hard. For a knife test video, that was far from the harshest I've seen. I just watched a man baton through pipe and bolts, plus split bricks with some Zero Tolerance knives. That I would view as abuse. Not carving a tomato stake and knocking the blade a bit.
I guess there's a big difference between a collector and a user in terms of what knives are put through.
I remember hearing about the guys from ESEE/RAT testing a Military a few years ago, before they started making knives. They batoned and beat the tar out of it, and only had a glowing review to give at the end. Perhaps the Manix 2 needs improvement. Perhaps the ball bearing moves with impacts?
One thing I do agree on, is that I would like to see more Manix 2s and other knives tested to see if this was simply a fluke, or the strength of the CBBL.
I guess there's a big difference between a collector and a user in terms of what knives are put through.
I remember hearing about the guys from ESEE/RAT testing a Military a few years ago, before they started making knives. They batoned and beat the tar out of it, and only had a glowing review to give at the end. Perhaps the Manix 2 needs improvement. Perhaps the ball bearing moves with impacts?
One thing I do agree on, is that I would like to see more Manix 2s and other knives tested to see if this was simply a fluke, or the strength of the CBBL.
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The General
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Looks to me like the knife blade became wobbly as the pivot screw was either not tight at the beginning of the test or it became lose.
At this point, many knives would fail if the blade was allowed a great deal of lateral movement.
Were the pivot tightened correctly at the point where it become lose, I would be interested to see if it then failed.
I can't say if it would or would not but I would favour a solid bet that this knife would not fail if its pivot screw were tightened correctly.
Oh and, threadlock for the win...
At this point, many knives would fail if the blade was allowed a great deal of lateral movement.
Were the pivot tightened correctly at the point where it become lose, I would be interested to see if it then failed.
I can't say if it would or would not but I would favour a solid bet that this knife would not fail if its pivot screw were tightened correctly.
Oh and, threadlock for the win...
My real name is Wayne :D
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SaturnNyne
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Interesting—and very surprising—stuff.
Of course this test was abuse, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we should just circle the wagons and come up with excuses why it's ok that the lock failed. The knife should never be used this way, but it also shouldn't be expected to fail so easily: it's touted as one of the absolute most secure locks we've got but it didn't stand up to what the competition did. So why didn't it? Instead of why is it ok that it failed, let's ask why did it fail?
I'm guessing the lock would have little problem with the whacks if operating properly under normal circumstances. So how could it have failed exactly? The blade is held open by a solid piece of steel jammed between two other pieces of steel and held in place by a stiff spring. The motion of swinging the knife isn't going to work against the spring pressure, so what is going on at impact that would cause the ball to get spat out the back instead of squeezed harder between the tang and backspacer? Something seems very wrong there, as if either the locking components were misshapen/worn down or something (like a sliver of wood?) got lodged in the mechanism. It just doesn't seem like there's enough of a ramp for the ball to just slide out against the spring pressure. Did he ever inspect it for debris, retighten the pivot, and redo the last part of the test?
I can believe that the lock wasn't functioning properly due to damage already done, but is the pivot loosening really going to have that much of an impact on the strength? As long as it doesn't get so loose that the ball can slip out between the blade and liners or the spring can slide out of position at the rear, how does the loosening weaken it so drastically? That's a serious question, I don't understand it and would like more input.
If a loose pivot could have played a role in causing this failure, does that mean that the loose pivots seen on many M2s from the factory are potentially detrimental to the security of the lock, since a blade with room for play to begin with is probably better able to exert leverage to create more play under hard use? Not a significant issue I'm sure, but just wondering if this minor annoyance might have functional implications at a certain point.
Just my thoughts in reaction to this, sorry I'm tired and rambly. :)
Of course this test was abuse, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we should just circle the wagons and come up with excuses why it's ok that the lock failed. The knife should never be used this way, but it also shouldn't be expected to fail so easily: it's touted as one of the absolute most secure locks we've got but it didn't stand up to what the competition did. So why didn't it? Instead of why is it ok that it failed, let's ask why did it fail?
I'm guessing the lock would have little problem with the whacks if operating properly under normal circumstances. So how could it have failed exactly? The blade is held open by a solid piece of steel jammed between two other pieces of steel and held in place by a stiff spring. The motion of swinging the knife isn't going to work against the spring pressure, so what is going on at impact that would cause the ball to get spat out the back instead of squeezed harder between the tang and backspacer? Something seems very wrong there, as if either the locking components were misshapen/worn down or something (like a sliver of wood?) got lodged in the mechanism. It just doesn't seem like there's enough of a ramp for the ball to just slide out against the spring pressure. Did he ever inspect it for debris, retighten the pivot, and redo the last part of the test?
I can believe that the lock wasn't functioning properly due to damage already done, but is the pivot loosening really going to have that much of an impact on the strength? As long as it doesn't get so loose that the ball can slip out between the blade and liners or the spring can slide out of position at the rear, how does the loosening weaken it so drastically? That's a serious question, I don't understand it and would like more input.
If a loose pivot could have played a role in causing this failure, does that mean that the loose pivots seen on many M2s from the factory are potentially detrimental to the security of the lock, since a blade with room for play to begin with is probably better able to exert leverage to create more play under hard use? Not a significant issue I'm sure, but just wondering if this minor annoyance might have functional implications at a certain point.
Just my thoughts in reaction to this, sorry I'm tired and rambly. :)
"Nothing makes a knife maker-designer feel better than to see their efforts used." -Ed
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chuck_roxas45
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SaturnNyne wrote:Interesting—and very surprising—stuff.
Of course this test was abuse, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we should just circle the wagons and come up with excuses why it's ok that the lock failed. The knife should never be used this way, but it also shouldn't be expected to fail so easily: it's touted as one of the absolute most secure locks we've got but it didn't stand up to what the competition did. So why didn't it? Instead of why is it ok that it failed, let's ask why did it fail?
Yes, we should do this.
http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2014/ ... ot-gif.gif" target="_blank
I think the Manix2 is up to any task from a construction design. It's as robust per ounce as any knife on the market (eg: it doesn't weigh 9 oz :p ). I would honestly thing it's as strong as any knife period but if you build something with enough steel it can probably be outdone.
My problem has always been what constitutes a test and what it really proves. What were the constants, what variables where tweaked and the data recorded. Lastly HOW MANY times or units were tested! This is how surveys are shown to be speculative or remotely accurate.
As I have said a spine-whack is a horrible test. A MBC lock is rated at over 200 pounds/inch of blade length. Sal said that the knife will self-destruct before the lock will fail (on a proper knife). Spine-whacking is just a test of impact resistance because my guess the torque generated for a split second is multiple times that threshold.
I've seen videos of the Tenacious failing a spine whack, Axis locks failing the spine whack, and now a Manix2. I see the test itself as a youtube sensation as big as the Star Wars kid no matter what knives are being tested.
I have reasons I carry or not carry a blade and these opinions are not generated because the knife would succeed or fail an independent test. I would trust a Chinook, Delica, Lum Chinese, or Kiwi to hard use and even a self-defense situation. If Cold Steel's Espada XL failed a spine whack I wouldn't feel better or worse about it.
If I want to pry crap, baton, and what-not I'll get a LARGE fixed blade, hatchet, axe, or pry-bar. Otherwise my "jack-of-all-trades" knife will be a clumsy tool for all things related to what it's meant to do: cutting.
Ever hear of a perfectly healthy 20 year old athlete's heart fail while at rest? Me too.
What was the problem? Nothing...It just happened.
My problem has always been what constitutes a test and what it really proves. What were the constants, what variables where tweaked and the data recorded. Lastly HOW MANY times or units were tested! This is how surveys are shown to be speculative or remotely accurate.
As I have said a spine-whack is a horrible test. A MBC lock is rated at over 200 pounds/inch of blade length. Sal said that the knife will self-destruct before the lock will fail (on a proper knife). Spine-whacking is just a test of impact resistance because my guess the torque generated for a split second is multiple times that threshold.
I've seen videos of the Tenacious failing a spine whack, Axis locks failing the spine whack, and now a Manix2. I see the test itself as a youtube sensation as big as the Star Wars kid no matter what knives are being tested.
I have reasons I carry or not carry a blade and these opinions are not generated because the knife would succeed or fail an independent test. I would trust a Chinook, Delica, Lum Chinese, or Kiwi to hard use and even a self-defense situation. If Cold Steel's Espada XL failed a spine whack I wouldn't feel better or worse about it.
If I want to pry crap, baton, and what-not I'll get a LARGE fixed blade, hatchet, axe, or pry-bar. Otherwise my "jack-of-all-trades" knife will be a clumsy tool for all things related to what it's meant to do: cutting.
Ever hear of a perfectly healthy 20 year old athlete's heart fail while at rest? Me too.
What was the problem? Nothing...It just happened.
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chuck_roxas45
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I understand where you're coming from Blerv, and I don't want to pry or batton with my folders. But, if my folder can take that gross abuse and survive or even shrug it off, I would be ecstatic.Blerv wrote:
If I want to pry crap, baton, and what-not I'll get a LARGE fixed blade, hatchet, axe, or pry-bar. Otherwise my "jack-of-all-trades" knife will be a clumsy tool for all things related to what it's meant to do: cutting.
For example, I would like a fast car but that doesn't mean that I'll go fast often. Or even that I'll go as fast as it can go. I just like to have a car that has the capacity to go fast for my personal satisfaction.
It's the same with my "hard use" folder. I just want it to have the capacity to be abused as an inherent part of it's design. If I get a fixed blade just specifically for it's capacity to be hard use, that for me is like getting a racing car. It will have no practicality for the purposes of my everyday use.
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The question is intended use.
If I use regular sockets on my air impact tools, I should not be surprised if they crack.
If I take a Prius to Moab, I should not be surprised if I leave the drivetrain and suspension all over the rocks.
Closer to home, if I use my fixed blade as a prybar, I should not be surprised if it bends or breaks.
Just because you can do something that a tool wasn't designed for doesn't mean that you should or that you should be surprised when it fails to perform a task for which it was not designed.
If I use regular sockets on my air impact tools, I should not be surprised if they crack.
If I take a Prius to Moab, I should not be surprised if I leave the drivetrain and suspension all over the rocks.
Closer to home, if I use my fixed blade as a prybar, I should not be surprised if it bends or breaks.
Just because you can do something that a tool wasn't designed for doesn't mean that you should or that you should be surprised when it fails to perform a task for which it was not designed.
Great points and duly noted. :)chuck_roxas45 wrote:I understand where you're coming from Blerv, and I don't want to pry or batton with my folders. But, if my folder can take that gross abuse and survive or even shrug it off, I would be ecstatic.
For example, I would like a fast car but that doesn't mean that I'll go fast often. Or even that I'll go as fast as it can go. I just like to have a car that has the capacity to go fast for my personal satisfaction.
It's the same with my "hard use" folder. I just want it to have the capacity to be abused as an inherent part of it's design. If I get a fixed blade just specifically for it's capacity to be hard use, that for me is like getting a racing car. It will have no practicality for the purposes of my everyday use.
That last part was more of a personal note and opinion. I have a Manix2 and Superhawk and they are great just classified differently. Everything has a place.
My main issue really is the spine whack because it doesn't accurately translate to anything you would do with a knife. I don't fight tables with the spine of my knife in daily life nor could generate those forces in any practical situation (even combatives). If he did all that work and then attached it to a pole and started stabbing trees to make it fail...that would make more sense.
The real question is if this was a fluke product, bogus test or a design flaw. That's up to Spyderco to consider and act on.
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chuck_roxas45
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Totally agree.Blerv wrote:Great points and duly noted. :)
The real question is if this was a fluke product, bogus test or a design flaw. That's up to Spyderco to consider and act on.
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