EDC, but no gun?

[AlexB]

I don't carry because I am not of age to purchase and carry a handgun in California. When I do turn 21, I will be open carrying whenever I can. CCW is almost impossible for private citizens to get in my area, so bleh.

[Woz]

I own a gun, a Glock 19. I am allowed to carry it, for I have a license (that is hard to get here) - I will not carry it. I think sidearms do not belong in the hands of private citizens, they should be allowed to be carried be LEO only.

I know, a criminal will still carry one, thats why he is a criminal. But here in Austria, and may other countries where carrying is close to being impossible, there are very few gun-related crimes. A gun close is more likely to be used, even if not really necessary. You are scared, you have a gun, you shot. That scares people, who want a gun now...

[Dr. Snubnose]

I own a gun, a Glock 19. I am allowed to carry it, for I have a license (that is hard to get here) - I will not carry it. I think sidearms do not belong in the hands of private citizens, they should be allowed to be carried be LEO only.

I know, a criminal will still carry one, thats why he is a criminal. But here in Austria, and may other countries where carrying is close to being impossible, there are very few gun-related crimes. A gun close is more likely to be used, even if not really necessary. You are scared, you have a gun, you shot. That scares people, who want a gun now...

ummm...I really don't know what to say....Doc :confused:

[Jordan]

Your confidence in the stricture of law and the structure of law enforcement is enviable Woz. I, unfortunately, do not share it. I don't mean ANY kind of slight against the men and women who serve in law enforcement. As a matter of fact, my family has a history of joining and serving honorably in that profession. My grandfather and uncle both served as Chiefs of their police department. My father was employed at that same department before he joined the military, went to college, and wandered down to Texas. I'll grant that my paternal family's hometown (Logan, Ohio), isn't exactly LA or NYC... but the family tradition has practically sublimated a respect for LEOs.

Sorry about the irrelevant backstory... felt the need to establish my bonafides before I said this next part, lest I be judged too harshly :-P.

Policemen are only human... constrained by the limits placed on everyone else in terms of just how many places they can be at the same time, how fast they can transport themselves from one place to another, how observant they will be when they arrive, and how physically capable they will be of handling any situation which might arise at that location.

My desire to carry a deadly weapon is not an indication that I do not trust LEOs. It is indicative of my disagreement with the belief that LEOs are the only ones who should be armed, and it is born of a conviction that policemen cannot be everywhere that they are needed... and if I have supplied myself with the equipment and training necessary to protect myself without the timely intervention of society's protective patina, then I have made one tiny corner of the world (my own) a safer place. Call it a pathological lack of faith in everything outside of myself.

It would appear that in the place of the short comment that I originally planned... I managed to spit out a bit of a rant. My apologies :) .

[ChrisR]

I can see where Woz is coming from - it's a similar culture here, where gun crime is (thankfully) rare and the police don't want to see more guns in society where they could be used wrongly or stolen by criminals etc. What I disagree with, in our laws, is that handguns are completely banned for private ownership. I'd prefer to be allowed to own one for defense of my home (under strict license or maybe as part of a gun club membership) but I wouldn't like gun-carry to be made common practice because I think this would tempt people to use them in 'heat of the moment' situations like Woz described.

[jzmtl]

No gun carry allowed here too, but guess what, shooting in the city all the time, just the other day some dim wit dropped his pistol in a parade and have a whole bunch of cops jump on him.

[Lord vader]

Your confidence in the stricture of law and the structure of law enforcement is enviable Woz. I, unfortunately, do not share it. I don't mean ANY kind of slight against the men and women who serve in law enforcement. As a matter of fact, my family has a history of joining and serving honorably in that profession. My grandfather and uncle both served as Chiefs of their police department. My father was employed at that same department before he joined the military, went to college, and wandered down to Texas. I'll grant that my paternal family's hometown (Logan, Ohio), isn't exactly LA or NYC... but the family tradition has practically sublimated a respect for LEOs.

Sorry about the irrelevant backstory... felt the need to establish my bonafides before I said this next part, lest I be judged too harshly :-P.

Policemen are only human... constrained by the limits placed on everyone else in terms of just how many places they can be at the same time, how fast they can transport themselves from one place to another, how observant they will be when they arrive, and how physically capable they will be of handling any situation which might arise at that location.

My desire to carry a deadly weapon is not an indication that I do not trust LEOs. It is indicative of my disagreement with the belief that LEOs are the only ones who should be armed, and it is born of a conviction that policemen cannot be everywhere that they are needed... and if I have supplied myself with the equipment and training necessary to protect myself without the timely intervention of society's protective patina, then I have made one tiny corner of the world (my own) a safer place. Call it a pathological lack of faith in everything outside of myself.

It would appear that in the place of the short comment that I originally planned... I managed to spit out a bit of a rant. My apologies :) .

I wouldn`t apologize,I feel the same way, which brings an old saying to mind,"To thine own self be true".We all have or should have a sense of self preservation.You made a very good point.

[Billy]

My desire to carry a deadly weapon is not an indication that I do not trust LEOs. It is indicative of my disagreement with the belief that LEOs are the only ones who should be armed, and it is born of a conviction that policemen cannot be everywhere that they are needed... and if I have supplied myself with the equipment and training necessary to protect myself without the timely intervention of society's protective patina, then I have made one tiny corner of the world (my own) a safer place. Call it a pathological lack of faith in everything outside of myself.

Jordan, EXTREMELY well put and my thoughts exactly.

I have had my CCW (and exercised that right) since the mid-90's and would much rather have the weapon and not need it than the opposite. Bad people are everywhere and bad things happen all the time. The good people in law enforcement are just that - law enforcers, and crime investigators, but not always crime preventers. As the old saying goes, when seconds count, 911 takes only a few minutes. In the event of a violent crime what are the chances that you will be able to call 911 before or during that crime anyway? I'd much rather know I have the tools and mindset to protect myself and my loved ones than rely on someone else to do it for me.

[ColtCobra]

Jordan, EXTREMELY well put and my thoughts exactly.

I have had my CCW (and exercised that right) since the mid-90's and would much rather have the weapon and not need it than the opposite. Bad people are everywhere and bad things happen all the time. The good people in law enforcement are just that - law enforcers, and crime investigators, but not always crime preventers. As the old saying goes, when seconds count, 911 takes only a few minutes. In the event of a violent crime what are the chances that you will be able to call 911 before or during that crime anyway? I'd much rather know I have the tools and mindset to protect myself and my loved ones than rely on someone else to do it for me.

Very well said Billy.

[StuntZombie]

I'm in law enforcement, and I can honestly say there are some police officers that probably shouldn't carry a gun. I daresay the number of police officers that regularly practice with their weapons are outnumbered by private citizens that do the same. The simple fact of the matter is that many police officers are not "gun" people, and only carry it because it's required by their job, just like a carpenter carries a hammer. I know of some officers that only fire their weapon once a year, at qualification. And believe me, it shows.

Having said that, I only occasionally carry concealed. It just depends on where I'm going to be spending my time and what I'll be doing. Even though I live in a small area, crazy stuff still happens here. For example, we just recently had a shooting in the parking lot of the Food Lion not too far from my house. You just never know.

I also just have to say, I'm glad to see everyone is so civil here compared to other places. I think people forget that carrying a gun is a very personal thing, and just because someone chooses not to doesn't mean they are wrong, naive, or a coward. We all have reasons for carrying or not, whether they are moral and personal, and people should respect that.

Okay, off my soapbox now.. :o

[Dr. Snubnose]

Good Points StuntDouble....Doc :D

[gac]

I agree with most everything already written above.

My comment about police as that they are usually doing the law enforcement version of garbage men: they do not arrive in time to prevent or stop a crime. Police arrive after an incident to clean up the mess, investigate the crime, and catch the crook.

I live in a small city (6,000 people) with what seems to be a pretty decent department. If you go outside the City the County will have only 4-6 squads on the road per shift. You cannot expect the police to swoop in to rescue you.

[Billy]

The simple fact of the matter is that many police officers are not "gun" people, and only carry it because it's required by their job, just like a carpenter carries a hammer.

Funny because I have had this exact conversation with the owner of my local gun range/store, who also happens to serve many of the local LEO's. He's told me a few stories about cops and their ineptness with handguns that I think many here would find amusing and it backs up the above statement that there are a good number of cops who are just not "gun people". At least fewer than most people generally think.

[Dr. Snubnose]

Funny because I have had this exact conversation with the owner of my local gun range/store, who also happens to serve many of the local LEO's. He's told me a few stories about cops and their ineptness with handguns that I think many here would find amusing and it backs up the above statement that there are a good number of cops who are just not "gun people". At least fewer than most people generally think.

Well as a Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor, some of what is said about the Police and Firearms is true...it is the object they must carry which weighs in pretty heavy compared to their other equipment, and most likely hardly ever used in the line of duty. Yes there are those who don't care to know anything regarding firearms so long as they qualify. I have seen dust balls filling the entire barrel of guns owned by Police Officers, upon inspection, and when I asked about the dust balls I was told don't worry they will fire out with the first round. ( Kinda like Dust Balls for the Dirt Bag)...I once made the "Mistake" of cleaning one of my officers guns for him, including taking all the rust off the gun. The officer was pissed at me for cleaning it. He said I was going to get him in trouble when the Sgt. inspected it, saying he would now expect his gun to look like that all the time, and the Sgt. did hold that gun up in front of all the others saying to them look at this, this is the way all of your guns should look all the time"...The officer in question came back to me, told me the story and said with a nasty grin..."Thanks a bunch ...Doc"
That being said you must also take into account, there are just as many Law Enforcement Agents out there that, take great care of their firearms, and are serious about being proficient in there use. They train hard spend lots of time at the range and reach high levels of skill. Some will spend their own monies on ammo, and practice diligently, to achieve those levels of skills. So lets not make the mistake and say all Law Enforcement Agents are slackers when it come to their firearms, because the truth is most are not. There is an expression in the old days, "If you want to know about handguns don't ask a cop" The expression doesn't hold water anymore, times have changed. And rest assure those I train are serious about learning, what they need to know about firearms to keep themselves and you safe from harm.....Doc :D

[gac]

So lets not make the mistake and say all Law Enforcement Agents are slackers when it come to their firearms, because the truth is most are not. There is an expression in the old days, "If you want to know about handguns don't ask a cop" The expression doesn't hold water anymore, times have changed.

That is good news.

[StuntZombie]

Good to hear things are starting to change Doc. I haven't been in law enforcement long, but it kind of surprised how little my coworkers knew about guns after being raised in a rural setting. I will say the State Police and town police officers in my area do seem to be better versed on firearms and their use compared to the majority of my fellow deputies.

[SecSpyral]

I carry concealed with a permit :)

[Jordan]

Who knew that this thread would branch off into such an interesting discussion?

Outside of my own family, I have relatively little experience with cops. My uncle was the first person who ever took me shooting... and he certainly knew his way around a firearm. Of course, he's been retired for nearing two decades... so things have probably changed quite a bit in the LE world. I don't find it terribly surprising that many aren't as well versed as he is... he came from and worked in a very rural area, grew up the son of a police chief, and has generally spend a lot of time around guns for most of his life.

In my experience in the military, I've found that many people in my profession aren't proficient beyond the bare minimum with their issued weapon systems. A policeman's first job, insofar as I see it, is to protect the public. A soldiers first job is to engage the enemy. If there are soldiers who can't shoot, it stands to reason that there are policemen in the same boat. :-P

I've actually always wondered... how does range time work for LEOs these days? Are cops supplied with some set amount of ammo with which to practice if they so choose? I would imagine that it varies from department to department, agency to agency, but that that is generally the case... I've been wrong before. When I enlisted, I figured I'd be spending all sorts of time at the range, and in today's army... we are lucky to get much more than a few trips per year just to keep everyone qualified. With deployments so close together... units find it hard to schedule "extra" training events like that when there are so many other metrics that have to be checked off to keep units up and ready to get back into the sand.

Also, is there some standard qualification method for police departments? Do policemen generally have to stay qualified with anything other than their sidearm?

[Dr. Snubnose]

Who knew that this thread would branch off into such an interesting discussion?

Outside of my own family, I have relatively little experience with cops. My uncle was the first person who ever took me shooting... and he certainly knew his way around a firearm. Of course, he's been retired for nearing two decades... so things have probably changed quite a bit in the LE world. I don't find it terribly surprising that many aren't as well versed as he is... he came from and worked in a very rural area, grew up the son of a police chief, and has generally spend a lot of time around guns for most of his life.

In my experience in the military, I've found that many people in my profession aren't proficient beyond the bare minimum with their issued weapon systems. A policeman's first job, insofar as I see it, is to protect the public. A soldiers first job is to engage the enemy. If there are soldiers who can't shoot, it stands to reason that there are policemen in the same boat. :-P

I've actually always wondered... how does range time work for LEOs these days? Are cops supplied with some set amount of ammo with which to practice if they so choose? I would imagine that it varies from department to department, agency to agency, but that that is generally the case... I've been wrong before. When I enlisted, I figured I'd be spending all sorts of time at the range, and in today's army... we are lucky to get much more than a few trips per year just to keep everyone qualified. With deployments so close together... units find it hard to schedule "extra" training events like that when there are so many other metrics that have to be checked off to keep units up and ready to get back into the sand.

Also, is there some standard qualification method for police departments? Do policemen generally have to stay qualified with anything other than their sidearm?

Yes it does vary between agencies...some if not most (if it's within their budgets) do indeed issue extra ammo to play with...most that I train spend additional monies of their own to practice with as well. LEO must qualify with their duty issued arms and any other firearm (if back up is allowed) they might carry on the job. There is some interesting side notes between what you could call old school and new school. Back in the days of your relatives, the issue sidearm for most agencies were wheel guns. With only six rounds before reload, shot placement and basic marksmanship skills had to be precise, especially while under pressure (like someone shooting back at you)...not like shooting paper targets at all. For NYPD, for example the qualification scores for the average officer were in the 70% range. Hits on the street were about 1 in 4. Then along comes the semi-automatic handgun which is used by most agencies nowadays. For NYPD qualification scores rose to the 90% range because the semi-auto is a little bit easier to use with accuracy.
Funny though the hits on the streets reported to be 1 in 20. You might be scratching your head about now. With the higher capacity magazines and plenty of firepower there was a tendency under stress to do what is called spray and pray...that is to get off as many rounds as fast as you could till the threat ceased it's action. The reported hits were more often made by those with their old revolver skills who took the time to use their sights and adhered to basic marksmanship skills who were making the hits on the streets of NY, even though they were using the semi-auto....Doc :D

[Jordan]

Thanks for the info Doc. Makes me glad that an old school cop gave me my first shooting lessons. I've been considering the possibility of going into LE after the military... and I have to say, the concept of getting even a little of my ammo subsidized makes that an even more attractive prospect :) .