So many steels, so few knives..... :eek:
sal
Carpenter CTS-XHP Steel
This steel is not one of many. This steel is simple The Best! (as I already mentioned in Manix thread)sal wrote:So many steels, so few knives..... :eek:
sal
It is better then ZDP189, better then CPM S90V, better then BG42, better then custom 52100 and 1095 etc...
Please, make more knives with this steel.
Manix 2 is great, but I think it must be Military as well.
Is this steel hard to get or hard to manufacture?
Regards, Vassili.
-
Lord vader
- Member
- Posts: 1599
- Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:24 pm
- Location: U.S.A.
Vassili,
That's a bold statement. :) But I agree. On paper, this is a fantastic steel and I'm very happy to own the new green Manix 2. Can anyone speak to how tough this steel is?
That's a bold statement. :) But I agree. On paper, this is a fantastic steel and I'm very happy to own the new green Manix 2. Can anyone speak to how tough this steel is?
Dan (dsmegst)
:spyder:
Latest 10: Techno, Centofante Memory, Bradley Air, Tuff, M390 Blue Para 2 (2), Yojimbo 2, Des Horn, DiAlex Junior, Native 5, Chaparral
:spyder:
:spyder:
Latest 10: Techno, Centofante Memory, Bradley Air, Tuff, M390 Blue Para 2 (2), Yojimbo 2, Des Horn, DiAlex Junior, Native 5, Chaparral
:spyder:
-
WireEdge Roger
- Member
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Mon May 18, 2009 11:25 am
- Location: Indiana
Do you think you'll be able to post your updates after extended use? :DWireEdge Roger wrote:I love the CTS-XHP steel so far! I've had my Manix 2 for 11 days now, used it for everything I can, and it'll still shave hair. I wonder if Spyderco ran it at 64 RC?
I know how much people love their D2 Paras and if this is a stainless D2, I expect AFI's to be even more enthusiastic about the CTS-XHP. I wonder if we'll see the new Para 2 out in CTS-XHP ...
No that's not bold statement.dsmegst wrote:Vassili,
That's a bold statement. :) But I agree. On paper, this is a fantastic steel and I'm very happy to own the new green Manix 2. Can anyone speak to how tough this steel is?
I run manila rope cutting tests (200 cuts of 1/2" rope) - see results in my other thread.
This is best edge holding production steel among 33 tested.
It is not hard to sharpen as well, I think it is relatively easier then many others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-3lFQjx5i4
Thanks, Vassili.
Funny you should say that. I was touching up the 3 M2s tonight - 154CM, S90V and CTS-XHP. To my hand, the XHP sharpened up like the 154CM, even though it cuts like the S90V. I was really impressed. I'd be interested to hear what others find.ColtCobra wrote:I`m not too familiar with CTS-XHP steel, but I would imagine that it would be very difficult to sharpen.
I'd also be interested to hear about where it is on the Rc scale. I would be surprised if it's 64, but I'm very happy to be wrong.
-
The Mastiff
- Member
- Posts: 6044
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:53 am
- Location: raleigh nc
Wow Nozh, Maxamet?
I've never heard of any sporting knife manufacturer doing anything remotely close. Farid T1000 folders in T-1 are found for sale here and there for 4 to 5 bills. He makes some other strange knives on occasion, even using stuff like D7. I believe he advertised Maxamet some time back. If you talk to him personally he will try to sell you a 440C knife though :) Not many custom makers would be willing to work this stuff if they could get it. It's mostly sold to manufacturers of industrial machinery tools who buy a batch of it and sit on it for years, using it a bit at a time for special cases. Some of these shops have original batches of Vascowear stock that they use that had to have been purchased 15 years ago before manufacturer by the original foundry ceased business.
A couple example shops:http://www.diehlsteel.com/
http://www.sousacorp.com/ts-comp.htm
http://www.cknife.com/material/
As far as your "best" steel I'm in the "there is no best steel" camp. Even if there was your methodology doesn't take things into consideration like best heat treat for the steel's intended use, best hardness for each steel for it's intended use, optimum geometry for that steel's hardness, and intended use,thinness of blade & grind, etc. You do sharpen to the same grit but IMO that's not enough to proclaim something "best" . There are too many factors left out. Stating that you have more hours than anyone else doing it means not a great deal if the methodology is , um, lacking.
I do however believe that H1 is the best steel for corrosive environments. Maxamet would be better at making, say, broaches and mills than D7, for instance.
Other than very broad statements I can't go along with best on anything other than perhaps my liking something best for a certain category of use. I prefer CPM M4 in folders currently. I make no statements it's the best at anything other than making me happy.
I do have great respect for the hours you have put into it, and the injuries you suffered. It makes interesting reading too. To call something "the best" though is stretching it a lot.
Personally the new Takefu "cobalt special" , Super blue, and the others described by Sal are enough to keep me hanging on my seat.
BTW, I finally did get an S125V blade @ RC 64-65. Don't think I'm not all for pushing the limits where practical and appropriate. I've got a thin slicing O-1 blade at the same hardness to see what I see. It's fun stuff!
That's got higher numbers than M48 , and any other of the Ultra hard high speed steel class. Maxamet would be sort of hard on Sal's tooling and employees, not to mention cost. With the cost of Vanadium, tungsten, and cobalt this would be seriously expensive stuff. Harder to work than S125V by a long shot I'd think.1.55 C, 0.03 S, 4.75 Cr, 6.00 V, 13.00 W, 10.00 Co, Bal. Fe
I've never heard of any sporting knife manufacturer doing anything remotely close. Farid T1000 folders in T-1 are found for sale here and there for 4 to 5 bills. He makes some other strange knives on occasion, even using stuff like D7. I believe he advertised Maxamet some time back. If you talk to him personally he will try to sell you a 440C knife though :) Not many custom makers would be willing to work this stuff if they could get it. It's mostly sold to manufacturers of industrial machinery tools who buy a batch of it and sit on it for years, using it a bit at a time for special cases. Some of these shops have original batches of Vascowear stock that they use that had to have been purchased 15 years ago before manufacturer by the original foundry ceased business.
A couple example shops:http://www.diehlsteel.com/
http://www.sousacorp.com/ts-comp.htm
http://www.cknife.com/material/
As far as your "best" steel I'm in the "there is no best steel" camp. Even if there was your methodology doesn't take things into consideration like best heat treat for the steel's intended use, best hardness for each steel for it's intended use, optimum geometry for that steel's hardness, and intended use,thinness of blade & grind, etc. You do sharpen to the same grit but IMO that's not enough to proclaim something "best" . There are too many factors left out. Stating that you have more hours than anyone else doing it means not a great deal if the methodology is , um, lacking.
I do however believe that H1 is the best steel for corrosive environments. Maxamet would be better at making, say, broaches and mills than D7, for instance.
Other than very broad statements I can't go along with best on anything other than perhaps my liking something best for a certain category of use. I prefer CPM M4 in folders currently. I make no statements it's the best at anything other than making me happy.
I do have great respect for the hours you have put into it, and the injuries you suffered. It makes interesting reading too. To call something "the best" though is stretching it a lot.
Personally the new Takefu "cobalt special" , Super blue, and the others described by Sal are enough to keep me hanging on my seat.
BTW, I finally did get an S125V blade @ RC 64-65. Don't think I'm not all for pushing the limits where practical and appropriate. I've got a thin slicing O-1 blade at the same hardness to see what I see. It's fun stuff!
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
-
The Mastiff
- Member
- Posts: 6044
- Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:53 am
- Location: raleigh nc
Lorenzol, I got a knife sized blank a few years ago. I tried working on it for a while, but due to the constant surgeries & rehabs I had to put it off.
I finally worked out a deal with someone to share it and we would both get small utility type knives out of it. On to the grinders , heat treaters ( using Phil Wilson's specs), then cryo & it came out at RC 64-65 in two places.
At full hardness it would have been around RC 65-66.
It's wear resistant stuff. Power equipment only for big stuff. I was trying to sand some down to finish it at a higher finish and the best Garnet wet dry sheet sandpaper was taking so long it seemed like I was getting no results.
The O-1 blade is just a test. I've always used it from RC 58 to 60. I've used 1095 at RC 66, but not O-1. We'll see what we see.
Next project will be S110V at around RC 65-66. Maybe next year.
By the way we found out that it was supposed to be annealed when we got it. It was around RC 50, and didn't want to co operate. Re annealing it made it work like S90V or so. Not much worse anyways.
When Sal had some and sent it back I'd bet that was why. It needed another annealing for whatever reason. The grind from the foundry was kind of messed up too.
I believe Phil Wilson much prefers S110V, or even CPM M4 and 10V to S125V. He gets better, more consistent results from S110V, and near the performance from M4 when run at full hardness. Likewise 10V at full hardness is a monster. The higher hardness numbers can be all the difference in the world with some ( most) steels. It's the biggest single factor in improving performance with steels designed to run at high numbers.
Joe
I finally worked out a deal with someone to share it and we would both get small utility type knives out of it. On to the grinders , heat treaters ( using Phil Wilson's specs), then cryo & it came out at RC 64-65 in two places.
At full hardness it would have been around RC 65-66.
It's wear resistant stuff. Power equipment only for big stuff. I was trying to sand some down to finish it at a higher finish and the best Garnet wet dry sheet sandpaper was taking so long it seemed like I was getting no results.
The O-1 blade is just a test. I've always used it from RC 58 to 60. I've used 1095 at RC 66, but not O-1. We'll see what we see.
Next project will be S110V at around RC 65-66. Maybe next year.
By the way we found out that it was supposed to be annealed when we got it. It was around RC 50, and didn't want to co operate. Re annealing it made it work like S90V or so. Not much worse anyways.
When Sal had some and sent it back I'd bet that was why. It needed another annealing for whatever reason. The grind from the foundry was kind of messed up too.
I believe Phil Wilson much prefers S110V, or even CPM M4 and 10V to S125V. He gets better, more consistent results from S110V, and near the performance from M4 when run at full hardness. Likewise 10V at full hardness is a monster. The higher hardness numbers can be all the difference in the world with some ( most) steels. It's the biggest single factor in improving performance with steels designed to run at high numbers.
Joe
"A Mastiff is to a dog what a Lion is to a housecat. He stands alone and all others sink before him. His courage does not exceed temper and generosity, and in attachment he equals the kindest of his race" Cynographia Britannic 1800
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
"Unless you're the lead dog the view is pretty much gonna stay the same!"
Well, correct statement should be.
According to my manila rope cutting tests this steel holds edge (sharpness measured with statistical thread cutting test) during and after 200 cuts of 1/2" rope better then all other steels except Dozier D2.
I have Farid Mehr T1000 out of high tungsten T1 steel and tested it - it is now on 18th place out of 34. ZDP189 - 4th place, CPM S90V - 11th place, CPM S110V - 17th place ...
http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila ... sults.html
I think while mathematically speaking it is not the best of best ever possible etc. But I still can say that this is best steel used for production knives.
Thanks, Vassili.
According to my manila rope cutting tests this steel holds edge (sharpness measured with statistical thread cutting test) during and after 200 cuts of 1/2" rope better then all other steels except Dozier D2.
I have Farid Mehr T1000 out of high tungsten T1 steel and tested it - it is now on 18th place out of 34. ZDP189 - 4th place, CPM S90V - 11th place, CPM S110V - 17th place ...
http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila ... sults.html
I think while mathematically speaking it is not the best of best ever possible etc. But I still can say that this is best steel used for production knives.
Thanks, Vassili.
A Military would be nice, but what I really crave is a Para 2 in XHP.
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
Those are interesting test results, Vassili, thanks for the link.
However, isn't there a potential confound in the tests...that blade shape & geometry is different among the test subjects? If so, then your tests are comparing a particular knife in a particular grind or blade shape with a particular steel...which is still very interesting...but not a head-to-head comparison among steels of identical shape, grind, edge. Or am I missing something?
Also, I was looking to see how you standardized edge geometry...were all blades sharpened to a particular angle? Were you able to verify "equivalent sharpness" at the beginning of the tests? And given that different steels like different angles, how did you control for that?
Very interesting tests, and thanks for the effort to conduct and publish them!
However, isn't there a potential confound in the tests...that blade shape & geometry is different among the test subjects? If so, then your tests are comparing a particular knife in a particular grind or blade shape with a particular steel...which is still very interesting...but not a head-to-head comparison among steels of identical shape, grind, edge. Or am I missing something?
Also, I was looking to see how you standardized edge geometry...were all blades sharpened to a particular angle? Were you able to verify "equivalent sharpness" at the beginning of the tests? And given that different steels like different angles, how did you control for that?
Very interesting tests, and thanks for the effort to conduct and publish them!
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
Was the CTS-XHP easy to sharpen?JNewell wrote:Funny you should say that. I was touching up the 3 M2s tonight - 154CM, S90V and CTS-XHP. To my hand, the XHP sharpened up like the 154CM, even though it cuts like the S90V. I was really impressed. I'd be interested to hear what others find.
I'd also be interested to hear about where it is on the Rc scale. I would be surprised if it's 64, but I'm very happy to be wrong.
The answer to this quandary would seem to be . . . MORE KNIVES.sal wrote:So many steels, so few knives..... :eek:
sal
Our reason is quite satisfied, in 999 cases out of every 1000 of us, if we can find a few arguments that will do to recite in case our credulity is criticized by someone else. Our faith is faith in someone else's faith, and in the greatest matters this is most the case.
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
- William James, from The Will to Believe, a guest lecture at Yale University in 1897
If your test places Dozier D2 as #1 overall, then it does not make any sense at all. It is great, mind you, but nowhere near M4.nozh2002 wrote:Well, correct statement should be.
According to my manila rope cutting tests this steel holds edge (sharpness measured with statistical thread cutting test) during and after 200 cuts of 1/2" rope better then all other steels except Dozier D2.
I have Farid Mehr T1000 out of high tungsten T1 steel and tested it - it is now on 18th place out of 34. ZDP189 - 4th place, CPM S90V - 11th place, CPM S110V - 17th place ...
http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila ... sults.html
I think while mathematically speaking it is not the best of best ever possible etc. But I still can say that this is best steel used for production knives.
Thanks, Vassili.
It could be your methodology, your interpretation or both.