Navy SEALs Charged

[The Mastiff]

PC based attacks were one of several tools used to help take one party out of the white house and put another in. You had better believe this administration will darn sure be wary of getting dragged into scandals like the ones they themselves benefited from and promoted so craftily.

They will err on the side of caution in issues like this.

I don't think or believe for one second this has anything to do with maintaining discipline in our armed forces. We have extremely well trained and motivated and self disciplined troops in regular units, much less extremely elite units where the washout rates getting into it is 60 to 70%. Discipline isn't close to being a problem in our current armed forces.

On the other hand if a soldier officially admits to an illegal action or lying about it his superiors should do their jobs.

My question is why would this be considered an illegal action? It wouldn't bother me if they road hauled him behind a Blackwater SUV to turn him over to the Iraqi's. The amusing thing is Iraqi's treat their prisoners a bunch worse than what these guys are being accused of.

We will destroy our own forces going after them like this. That's my concern. The majority of them do a great job and are motivated despite what they are asked to do, and more importantly put up with.

[noddy]

PC based attacks were one of several tools used to help take one party out of the white house and put another in. You had better believe this administration will darn sure be wary of getting dragged into scandals like the ones they themselves benefited from and promoted so craftily.

Is this a Fox.news story. I can't believe a word comes out from there. I am sure something like this has happened, but with Fox there is always some point that gets stupidly spun so as everyone gets wound up.

It's not like they have had their courts martial yet. They may yet be utterly exonerated, and there is no reason why the US government would want to risk messing up a judicial procedure in the way they have been so calamitously handled before.

[The Mastiff]

Is this a Fox.news story. I can't believe a word comes out from there. I am sure something like this has happened, but with Fox there is always some point that gets stupidly spun so as everyone gets wound up.

Noddy, why are you talking about fox news? I understand the liberals love to attack it, but personally I don't bother with news stations that are tilted towards one party or the other. Fox is pretty much republican, while ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, PBS are democratic. I have access to the whole world, fortunately. I'm also independent politically, and not affiliated with the dems or republicans. I try to work with facts and not opinions when making decisions on how to vote. I can vote any party and have except the american communist and socalist (or nazi type) parties.

and there is no reason why the US government would want to risk messing up a judicial procedure in the way they have been so calamitously handled before

You seem to have had some kind of knee jerk reaction to my thread. If I offended you I apologize. I doubt that though as you are a canadian and it's none of your concern . In addition, it would surprise me greatly if you really knew anything about the US military and it's judicial system.

The way I figure it we'll get along better if I don't tell you about Canada, and you don't tell me about the US.

[bh49]

WTF...i hate PC.

+1
I read this story yesterday. These were exactly my thoughts. plus a little more.
Do you remember the movie "Rules of engagement"?

[JLS]

Regarding rules, this is a lot like ISO 9000 in the workplace. It's all about accountability in the workplace. If you don't do exactly what your procedures say you do, you get dinged and/or lose your certification. Even if the deviation is necessary in the moment or an improvement, it's not what's on the paper and you're wrong.

The discussion we often have at work is that the people need to have the rules and procedures work for them not the other way around. When you're a slave to the rules, you will lose and morale will plummet.

Our soldiers have been slaves to the rules for decades and it's only getting worse.

[Eighth of Eight]

"The four Blackwater agents were transporting supplies for a catering company when they were ambushed and killed by gunfire and grenades. Insurgents burned the bodies and dragged them through the city. They hanged two of the bodies on a bridge over the Euphrates River for the world press to photograph."

WOW... oh yeah, no the whole booboo lip thing is just awful. In all probability that is the worst thing that has ever happened to anyone -- ever. (sarcasm)

These guys should have their own brass statues in D.C.! Good God. They do their job (as it is outlined for them by their C O) and this happens? what? He can't be allowed to get a little roughed up during his resistance to arrest? Better wrap him in bubble wrap.

My heart goes out to them and their families.

[Jimd]

According to the other three Seals, this occurred after the mission was complete, they showered and the prisoner was secured in a cell. So how did the rules make their jobs more risky?

I will explain precisely what I'm talking about.
Firstly, the Navy SEALs are possibly the most disciplined combat unit in the entire world. Washout rates in their training often approach the 90% mark, and there have been occasions where 100% of the class washed out. It doesn't get much more disciplined than that.

Rules of Engagement have been hindering our troops ever since this war kicked off. Do some research on this, but do yourself a favor - don't read the official press releases. Read the words from the troops themselves, the guys with boots on the ground.

Such things as sniper teams observing bad guys planting IEDs and then having to call in for permission to engage the bad guys. In the meantime, the bad guys get away to fight our troops another day.

That's just one small example (though not small if you're facing IEDs daily) of what I'm talking about.

The rules are encumbering our military people over there and the rules are costing the lives of allied troops.

People are crying because this murdering terrorist took a punch in the lip????!!!!???? Are you kidding me?!

I think he should be boiled alive in pig grease and then hung on a pole where thousands of people can see him daily with a sign hanging from him that says, "This is what we do to terrorists". But that's just me, I like to win.

Unfortunately, some folks delusionally think we should fight these vermin while playing by the Queensbury Rules. Our guys have to fight with one hand tied around their balls.

[noddy]

The way I figure it we'll get along better if I don't tell you about Canada, and you don't tell me about the US.

Good grief!! Where is your thumb at the moment?? :D :D

It'd be difficult to offend me about Canada, dear. I just happen to live here at the moment. Getting rained on still.

You are an adept at seeing through surface appearances, clearly. It might be better to start with the assumption that we know as much about the US services as each other.

Thanks for your interest in my reflexes though :) They are fine. Just had them checked.

[StangBang]

Oh boo hoo the terrorist got punched in the face and a cut lip

He killed 4 people...

I say they shoot and kill him then burn his body,drag him around and hang him from a bridge.

Just for good measure.

[Sequimite]

I will explain precisely what I'm talking about.
Firstly, the Navy SEALs are possibly the most disciplined combat unit in the entire world. Washout rates in their training often approach the 90% mark, and there have been occasions where 100% of the class washed out. It doesn't get much more disciplined than that.

I'm not getting into the political stuff because I respect the forum rules.

I'm amazed that you think that the Seals are so incredibly disciplined that they need no accountability for disobeying orders. They 90% dropout rate is just part of their rigid accountability. Do you think they've reached such a state of perfection that they need no further accountability? If they ARE that perfect, why did they disobey orders (if they are guilty) and why did the other three Seals turn them in?

[bluemist]

Don't assume these SEALS won't be thrown under the bus by their superiors. Read Rogue Warrior by Richard Marcinko, founder of seal team six if you doubt the military brass is capable of putting PC before their men.

That said, this smells like poop, so it probably is, we aren't getting the whole story.

[bluemist]

Again, SEALS turning in their brothers over a busted lip..? this doesn't smell right.

[Sequimite]

Again, SEALS turning in their brothers over a busted lip..? this doesn't smell right.

The military is not into this squishy moral relativism of, "it isn't so bad", "but he's a bad guy". An order is an order is an order and, unless it violates the constitution, it is to be obeyed. Three Seals are accused of violating orders. Three other Seals obeyed orders. For some reason many here want to glorify the three that disobeyed orders and demonize the three that obeyed orders.

How can you be so certain? I think it's because you're reacting emotionally. ****, I'd like to punch this guy out too, but the the military does not accept emotional gratification as an excuse for disobeying orders.

[Jimd]

I'm not getting into the political stuff because I respect the forum rules.

I'm amazed that you think that the Seals are so incredibly disciplined that they need no accountability for disobeying orders. They 90% dropout rate is just part of their rigid accountability. Do you think they've reached such a state of perfection that they need no further accountability? If they ARE that perfect, why did they disobey orders (if they are guilty) and why did the other three Seals turn them in?

We send SEALs and other special ops people out to do an almost impossible job, then chastise them because a terrorist's lip gets fat.

Do I think they're perfect? Well, not quite. Do I think they should be left to do the job by any means necessary? Yeah.

You have obviously never served in an environment similar to what they're in at the moment, fighting bloodthirsty people who lop off heads and set folks on fire. In fact, given your attitude, I seriously doubt that you've ever put your butt on the line anywhere.

Personally, I think you ought to thank the people whose protection you sleep under rather than throw them to the wolves because of some alleged charges.

Honestly, your stance makes my stomach turn, and people like you are one of the reasons that our military is being hamstrung.

[The Mastiff]

Good grief!! Where is your thumb at the moment??

Ok, you started it. Don't go complaining about my arrogance like you did last time . :)

It'd be difficult to offend me about Canada, dear.

Ok, sweetie.

You are an adept at seeing through surface appearances, clearly. It might be better to start with the assumption that we know as much about the US services as each other

.

Why would I assume that? What do you know about the US military and it's UCMJ? What do you know about the US? Why do you not stick to the topic, is the real question? Are you attempting to get this thread closed for some reason?

Thanks for your interest in my reflexes though They are fine. Just had them checked.

As above Noddy. Stop trying to be clever and stick to the topic. If you want to talk off topic, or insult me it's better done in a PM where the other people don't have to bother with it.

[v8r]

Oh no he's going for his gun!Bang Bang......end of problem.Sometimes I believe we are too easy on our enemies these days.Look back at World War II when Japan attacked Pearl Harbor,we took it up a notch on them.

[Eighth of Eight]

Scince when are foreign terrorists protected by the United States Constitution? :confused:

[Sequimite]

We send SEALs and other special ops people out to do an almost impossible job, then chastise them because a terrorist's lip gets fat.

Do I think they're perfect? Well, not quite. Do I think they should be left to do the job by any means necessary? Yeah.

You have obviously never served in an environment similar to what they're in at the moment, fighting bloodthirsty people who lop off heads and set folks on fire. In fact, given your attitude, I seriously doubt that you've ever put your butt on the line anywhere.

Personally, I think you ought to thank the people whose protection you sleep under rather than throw them to the wolves because of some alleged charges.

Honestly, your stance makes my stomach turn, and people like you are one of the reasons that our military is being hamstrung.

I was expecting the personal attack. I guess a cowardly terrorist lover like me just doesn't understand why the Seals obeying orders are the bad guys and the ones disobeying orders are the good guys.

No use pursuing this since you have infallible knowledge.

[noddy]

Ok, sweetie.

:)

(sorry, The Mastiff - I don't get the line about the arrogance)

[stoneman]

I'm only a Canadian, so I may not know much :rolleyes: , but what exactly are these "orders" that were disobeyed. Does anyone know for a fact exactly what these men were ordered to do/not do? I understand they were sent to capture someone, presumably to be brought back alive, but were they ordered to pamper him as well? Is everyone just going to assume this guy went in without a fight after 5 yrs on the run? Maybe he was being violent with them? I'll agree that torture and abuse of a prisoner is bad, but this guy only took on puch in the mouth and got off lucky in my opinion.

People are making the comparison to cops, I can show you vids where a cop will taze your *** for not hanging up your phone. Or maybe 6 or seven cops using fists and knees to get an old man to comply to orders he's too drunk to even understand. Nobody bats an eye when they see this stuff. If you don't believe me watch an episode or two of cops. There's bound to be at least one example of excessive force per episode and it's been on the air for years.

It's a shame that some are willing to hang these men out to dry. Men who have given up their free lives so that you can have yours. All for the sake of a murderer with a bloody lip. I've been in fights in primary school and took/gave more damage than this dog received. None of us went to trial for it.