I also wish the new Dragonfly were cheaper. It seems like I can get so much more knife for the same price. While I don't think it's overpriced, it is more than I'm willing to pay for a little knife like that. Now a cheaper FRN version would be something I'd be very interested in.
peacefuljeffrey wrote:And no, I have zero interest in the Byrd line of knives. Two reasons: I have a strong aesthetic aversion to the shape of the blade hole (read: I hate it!)
I hear you on that. I hate the shape of the Byrd-hole.
peacefuljeffrey wrote:I do not like to buy knives made in Taiwan, no matter how much people want to defend the practice of outsourcing the manufacture. I will never like it.
So, maybe I'll look into trading someone my Herbst for a Dragonfly, or maybe a Dragonfly and a Delica, since the Herbst should command more money than the Dragonfly does...
You may not want to pick up the Dragonfly or Delica. Both are outsourced to Japan. I see no difference whatsoever between a Japan-made and Taiwan-made Spyderco and have no problem purchasing from either country (if there is a difference between outsourcing to one country or the other, please enlighten me).
The thread started about money. This is a bit silly as its only $70 for something that will last a lifetime and if anything appreciate in value. Frickin gas costs almost $3 a gallon these days.
Three pages later we have defended the everything including color and place of build.
If its against principles dont say its money. Since im not a getting cut on the sale, do whatever you want.
Blerv, the defense may sit well with and satisfy some, but it won't necessarily satisfy others. I'm one of the others. Are you saying it's not my right to feel that the knife seems like it shouldn't cost this much?
For example, I see the argument, "You'll have it for a lifetime," to be specious. I have plastic kubotans that cost about $6 that will also last a lifetime. If they had been offered for $25 each, should I excuse that because they'll last a lifetime?
As for the difference between supporting a product made in Japan versus one made in China... :rolleyes:
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."
peacefuljeffrey wrote:As for the difference between supporting a product made in Japan versus one made in China... :rolleyes:
You really do need to enlighten us. I know that many on here have a downer on China/Taiwan but no problem with Japan. I'm afraid I really don't get it. I can just about understand the USA only brigade though but Japan hardly qualifies as part of the USA. It's a good job that the rest of the world aren't quite as parochial though. While I suspect that Spyderco would survive without overseas sales, I'm sure they don't object to them either.
The Deacon wrote:Yep, but you took it right in the middle of Sal's living room.
And we're still stepping in it.....
peaceful, it is your right to feel however you want to feel. We few are just trying to explain to you that it doesn't make any sense to feel that way. You asked, "Why??" and we have been telling you.
peacefuljeffrey wrote:But you get "free health care" over there, right? Can't the savings you benefit from that be parlayed into knife-spending funds? :p
Sorry, I believe what I was just doing is called "taking the piss." No harm intended.
Lol yes we do get free health care, which is why it took over a year for them to remove a tumor from the nerve in my middle finger which was causing serve pain to go all the way up my arm. I do feel a lot better knowing all that pain got me any extra few Spydies tho lol :D
peacefuljeffrey wrote:Blerv, the defense may sit well with and satisfy some, but it won't necessarily satisfy others. I'm one of the others. Are you saying it's not my right to feel that the knife seems like it shouldn't cost this much?
For example, I see the argument, "You'll have it for a lifetime," to be specious. I have plastic kubotans that cost about $6 that will also last a lifetime. If they had been offered for $25 each, should I excuse that because they'll last a lifetime?
As for the difference between supporting a product made in Japan versus one made in China... :rolleyes:
People were having custom makers put together G10 versions of the Lava and other pinned knives long before the G10 Dragonfly hit the street. I'm sure they paid a bit upward of $70 from start to finish.
It's your human right to have an opinion about the price of a product. I don't feel you are weighing all the options (including finding the cheapest place to shop or just dealing with FRN). You also made a comment about outsourcing and color which are justification for not wanting to spend the money. It's not rare to bring up other unrelated points when people explain why the price may be in check...it's called justification. I enjoyed the delusion in high school that all the jocks and cheerleaders were self-involved and stupid.
The point is that any solid folder for under $100 is a value. Things are more expensive these days (including labor) so having one of the best small knives in the world from a manufacturer is going to cost you about $70. Sorry. If it makes you feel better, visit a knife shop and hold some of the competing models. I would list some of them but it's against the "shiny footprints" philosophy and quite frankly I couldn't keep from laughing while typing.
As for your problem with China based on the fact that it's China, I am sorry. I am also sorry that people pick on Taiwan knives and that 50 years ago the same people would have something racially charged to say about Japanese blades. I am also sad to say that the Big 3 domestic auto makers, Microsoft, Apple and almost every other big name American company blindly outsources to save money and pisses away any remnant of quality control. I'm also sorry that Honda and Toyota outsource to America and keep people in midland America happy and employed while other companies are taking bailout money and shutting down plants months later during "financial reorganization".
If you can solve a problem with a credit card it's not a problem, it's an expense. $70 is not a very large problem and neither is a $28 FRN Dragonfly and $2 worth of grip tape.
I would guess that you are not involved in manufacturing. But I am happy to share.
The G-10 D'fly should actually cost a bit more. We lowered our normally "fixed" margin. Partially because it cost more than anticipated (Yen got stgronger since proto was quoted.) and partially because it is a "test" for the new FRN model.
The current D'fly is "squirted" into a mold. takes about 20 seconds. One blade, one lock, one piece of FRN and a few rivets.
The G-10 D'fly has one blade, one lock, 2 liners-skeletonized, and 2 G-10 scales which must be machined, a wire clip, and a number of fasteners that cost far more to make than a rivet. the cost to manufacture all of those "extra" parts is very high.
Country of origin. Assuming all materials are equal, which is not possible, but hypotheical;
We make ABC in the US - it cost $1.00
We make ABC is Japan, with a Yen value exceeding the US dollar b y 12%, it cost $1.12
We make ABC in Italy with the Euro 43% higher than the US dollar and we pay $1.43
We make ABC in Taiwan and it cost $0.65
We make ABC in China and it cost $0.35
Put those figures into your head, then figure that all of those materials really aren't equal, nor is the quality, but it will give you a better idea how to "feel" what a product cost to make.
Thanks for the explanation Sal... I'd love to see a video of how one is made; "squirted" into a mould. It'd be very interesting as I've always wanted to see how our knives are made and watch them roll out of the plant. Good thing the Dragonfly 2 is a regular production, cos that gives me more time to save up for one. There's just too many coming out that I can't keep up. I love the Dragonfly and use one (AUS-8) on a keychain knife on a daily basis. Glad to see the designed being improved as I've always wanted one in G-10 and with some gimping on the thumb ramp.
SFO Alumni/Authorized Spyderco Dealer (Startup)
Work EDC List
FRP: Nisjin Cricket PE, Manbug PE, Dragonfly PE
FLP: SS Cricket SE, byrd Flatbyrd CE
BRP: CF Military S90V
BLP: Forum S110V Native
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I would guess that you are not involved in manufacturing. But I am happy to share.
The G-10 D'fly should actually cost a bit more. We lowered our normally "fixed" margin. Partially because it cost more than anticipated (Yen got stgronger since proto was quoted.) and partially because it is a "test" for the new FRN model.
The current D'fly is "squirted" into a mold. takes about 20 seconds. One blade, one lock, one piece of FRN and a few rivets.
The G-10 D'fly has one blade, one lock, 2 liners-skeletonized, and 2 G-10 scales which must be machined, a wire clip, and a number of fasteners that cost far more to make than a rivet. the cost to manufacture all of those "extra" parts is very high.
Country of origin. Assuming all materials are equal, which is not possible, but hypotheical;
We make ABC in the US - it cost $1.00
We make ABC is Japan, with a Yen value exceeding the US dollar b y 12%, it cost $1.12
We make ABC in Italy with the Euro 43% higher than the US dollar and we pay $1.43
We make ABC in Taiwan and it cost $0.65
We make ABC in China and it cost $0.35
Put those figures into your head, then figure that all of those materials really aren't equal, nor is the quality, but it will give you a better idea how to "feel" what a product cost to make.
sal
With these hypothetical numbers, wouldn't it be cheaper and make more people happy to produce more knives in the US instead of Japan? Or would the cost to build a factory and pay wages in the US outweigh moving production? Do the large numbers of layoffs in the US play a role as well?
youtube.com/letsgoworkout My website for gear reviews with constantly updated GREAT DEALS on gear and where to get it. Check it out. No vids up yet, but they soon will be.:D
I don't think Spyderco has ever moved production of a knife from one factory to another. It seems each design is also created with the factory's specialties in mind.
I don't think there has been a lot of model relocations... Only a few come to mind like the Renegade and Centofante3/Vesuvius models. I don't think that Spyderco has the funds to build a new plant in the USA and keep up with worldwide demand.
So if you started a business and couldn't make all the products in you garage, what would you do? I'd find someone that could help me out. Most on-line shops don't even stock products anymore...they ship from a warehouse. Why should Spyderco have to make thier entire inventory in-house?
If you really want to get on someones case about having only USA products, then go write Walmart an nasty letter. Sorry, I mispelled that (Wongmart)
Not to mention, various steels are only available in certain countries, I believe it's extremely hard to source any significant amount of VG-10 and ZDP-189 stock outside of Japan.
Will
"No one wants to look the fool. Everyone does the best they can. If they knew better, they'd do better" - old woman on the railway tracks to Sal.
this thread just became especially enlightening and interesting!
thanks so much for the insight, sal.
the dragonfly is one of my favorite spydie designs. i'm pretty excited to pick up a new dragonfly 2, but unfortunately, got highly side-swiped by recent closeout deals... :D
am i the only one that thinks this thread has stirred up some uncalled for drama? i think the guy was simply just stating that the knife was a little bit more expensive than he thought and he posted it in a thread, after all this im sure he will still buy one since it is his favorite Spyderco he claims
And once again I'll just say your one lucky dude peaceful...
If my favorite knife was only $90 and I just got one..I'd have a few thousand extra dollars in my wallet :rolleyes:
Just get the knife already and stop thinking about it! thats what i usually do! :D
RIOT wrote:am i the only one that thinks this thread has stirred up some uncalled for drama? i think the guy was simply just stating that the knife was a little bit more expensive than he thought and he posted it in a thread, after all this im sure he will still buy one since it is his favorite Spyderco he claims
Thank you. That about nailed it.
My thanks also to Sal--for one thing, it's a thrill to be directly addressed by him, and for another, I want to reassure him that I'm still a Spyderco fan, still love the knives, still feel loyal to the company. I understand that things have moved in various directions over the years and that is what has to happen in individual cases as necessary. I hope for continued success for Spyderco and all involved with the company. Sal, please know that I don't mean to bash Spyderco. I was just taken aback by where the price of the new Dragonfly ended up. I'm sure I'll get over it.
RIOT: I don't plan to get one until/unless a different color of G-10 is introduced for it. I'd really prefer black, but as I think I hinted, I'm not keen on laying out the cash for this knife if it's in a color that I am not that fond of.
So Sal, will there be any Dragonfly versions in black G-10? :D
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."
And once again I'll just say your one lucky dude peaceful...
If my favorite knife was only $90 and I just got one..I'd have a few thousand extra dollars in my wallet :rolleyes:
Just get the knife already and stop thinking about it! thats what i usually do! :D
I wish it were that easy! If it's between keeping my motorcycle and car insurance current this month, and getting another pocketknife, I'll probably keep the collision and theft coverage, thankyew. I mean, what, do you think I own a knife company or something?!
"Within this frame an ocean swells -- behind the smile -- I know it well..."
