Spyderco Mule ZDP-189: problem

[Joshua J.]

Having knives hard enough to be brittle like that is definitely a disappointment for those that found out the hard way, but overall I wouldn't have it any other way. Even if it were my knife that broke. The point of these knives is to find out what the steel is capable of in cutting performance. ZDP-189 specializes in being hard, I'm actually excited at the prospect of having a piece of properly hardened ZDP-189. Spyderco usually does 64-65 Rc, if these are a step up in hardness I think that makes them more valuable.
As for those who broke their knives, thank you for sharing your experience. Hopefully we will all be extra careful from here on out.
Fortunately, there are still some available for purchase, and once the regular ones are sold out there's usually a bunch of factory seconds that go for a few bucks less.

[The Mastiff]

Sir,
Sorry, but you must have read my post attentively.
We have different knives from ZDP-189 (Spyderco and other manufacturers). I personally have Chinese Folder, En and Stretch CF, none of them can not break his hands. Great steel! The problem appeared only in Mule.
best regards

Spyderco's other knives in ZDP are hardened to a lower RC than the Mules. This does not mean the mule is improperly heat treated. It's harder, and therefore more brittle. There's a large difference between RC63.5 to 64.5, and RC 67.

Other manufacturers, including Yuna and Kershaw run it at lower RC's, more like the Endura's/Delicas. The only one advertised at RC67 is William Henry, and that is a laminated blade on a gentlemans knife not designed for hard cutting.

If what our Russian friends are saying is true, then it appears that their Mules broke from hand pressure alone.

As sharp as those blades are do you think someone was holding it by both sides and just bending? It's irrelevant anyway. However you want to try putting enough force on a 3mm piece of steel to bend it, it would not surprise me to see a very high carbide fraction steel run at or near Rc 67 crack, or even shatter. Same with dropping one. Steels at lower hardness chip and break when dropped and bent. Some at much lower hardnesses, and thicker blade stock.

but overall I wouldn't have it any other way

I agree with this. Live and learn.

[The Mastiff]

As far as sharpening these type steels, don't use the corners of your Spyderco sharpener. These are really better sharpened on waterstones, and other flat systems. If you use the spyderco system use the flats only, very, very light. I'd suggest getting the flat bench ceramic if you need something, as pressing this steel against small areas will sometimes ( probably, in this case) cause damage to the edge. Most will think it's chipping, but it's more correctly just breaking/crumbling away.

[yuraelektra]

I thank you for an objective approach to the issue.
Tell me, please, for which purpose need a knife, which can break his arms like a wooden pencil? Put in a cupboard on a shelf? I understand that many of the knives are on our shelf. I have about 300 different knives, I use 3-5 knives. BUT KNIFE - This is a tool, a knife should work and do not break your hands.

[The Mastiff]

I thank you for an objective approach to the issue.
Tell me, please, for which purpose need a knife, which can break his arms like a wooden pencil? Put in a cupboard on a shelf? I understand that many of the knives are on our shelf. I have about 300 different knives, I use 3-5 knives. BUT KNIFE - This is a tool, a knife should work and do not break your hands.

Taking this approach, one could say a brand new corvette is broken if it can't carry 4 adults, and 3 refigerators in the back like a ford truck. It can go almost 200 miles per hour, and do things the truck can't, but it's obviously broken.

BTW, I flat out don't believe the "pencil" analogy.

[yuraelektra]

Taking this approach, one could say a brand new corvette is broken if it can't carry 4 adults, and 3 refigerators in the back like a ford truck. It can go almost 200 miles per hour, and do things the truck can't, but it's obviously broken.

BTW, I flat out don't believe the "pencil" analogy.

OK. I understood you; Mule ZDP - a knife to spread butter on soft butter on fresh bread! :) :) :)
??? :D

[The Mastiff]

OK. I understood you; Mule ZDP - a knife to spread butter on soft butter on fresh bread!

Yeah, Just what I said.

I understand you too. We see people fairly often that come here after breaking their knives figuring this is the way to get them replaced. Just e-mail W&R. It's faster that way. :)

[yuraelektra]

Yeah, Just what I said.

I understand you too. We see people fairly often that come here after breaking their knives figuring this is the way to get them replaced. Just e-mail W&R. It's faster that way. :)

I(we) do not belong to these people, my(our) Mule(s) is not YET broken. :)

[Fred S]

seems like a regular nichols file would break at least as easy as the ZDP Mule. Probably easier, with all of the stress risers from the teeth. I dont know exactly how thick a file would be, but I dont think it willl break with a "pencil snapping" force. I will try tomorrow

[al888]

Mastiff - your complete dismissal of facts and hints towards yuraelektra's inability to assess an absolute factory defect, not to mention allegation of trying to defraud Spyderco (that is the only way to understand ....We see people fairly often that come here after breaking their knives figuring this is the way to get them replaced...) is disgusting

[jabba359]

Mastiff - your complete dismissal of facts and hints towards yuraelektra's inability to assess an absolute factory defect, not to mention allegation of trying to defraud Spyderco (that is the only way to understand ....We see people fairly often that come here after breaking their knives figuring this is the way to get them replaced...) is beneath of Spyderco employee. Shame on you. I've dealt with Spyderco CS before - nothing but pleasure, until I read your posts in this thread. I'm disgusted!

Ummm, he's not an employee as far as I know (it'd be quite the commute from Raleigh, NC to Golden, CO). When he says "We see people fairly often that come here..." he's referring to people coming to the forum, not to Spyderco.

[VashHash]

problems or not i'm still going to get a ZDP mule or 2 shame i missed out on the S90V mule wonderful steel wish i woulda known about it before i bought the manix 2 then i would have a few S90V mules too

[al888]

Ummm, he's not an employee as far as I know (it'd be quite the commute from Raleigh, NC to Golden, CO). When he says "We see people fairly often that come here..." he's referring to people coming to the forum, not to Spyderco.

I was under impression that he is
Using Spyderco forum to influence exchange of the product - how am I wrong?

[yuraelektra]

The purpose of our publication - it does not help in the exchange of broken blades. We wanted to hear comments from the manufacturer, in support we answered "send. If our fault - we will change" and everything! We wonder what do the owners of knives that are not yet broken. Pray and not to breathe on them? Put on the shelf and not touch?

(minor technical issues: sending Russia-USA is very not cheap, some people have already made the handle from the very expensive materials)

To be honest, we think that Spyderco is not guilty. We think that to blame the Japanese contractor. should just admit it and try to resolve the issue so that all were satisfied.

off: (Today read: Toyota recalling more than three million cars because of the mat)

with respect

[arnon]

BTW, I flat out don't believe the "pencil" analogy.

WHY ??? :) :rolleyes: :cool:

[Raqudu]

Russian pencils is absolutely the same, as American pencils. Both made in China. :D

I nominate this line for Thought of the Week.

Thanx, alexvzin, for the smile! :D

[jmp]

I nominate this line for Thought of the Week.

Thanx, alexvzin, for the smile! :D

Granted I lack Russian skills, and the English used on the international Russian board in question still had enough non-English parts to make me question-mark my reading of the messages in question. But the impression I got, was that the pencil comparison was for the required strength to *fully* break one of knife blades *already* suffering the tension crack from hole to edge.

In that situation, breaking the remaining 2x3mm above the spyderhole sounds way less impressive than breaking a full mule blade tempered say a point down to hrc66 for some stress relief (or merely the blade of my way smaller Jess Horn, regardless that I thinned down the blade quite a bit).

So alexvzin, how bad were my guessing/reading skills on that day?

cu
Peter

PS: An subjective observation comparing ZDP189 to the steels it is intented to replace (at stupidly low angles):

try a way-too-slim angle on white or blue paper steel hardened to hrc>65 is problematic and indeed even tiny scratches left from diamond stages can later result in a fairly huge edge breakout at high grit water stones. Note that this was a simple single-bevel craft knife way below 15DEG to the very edge. One or two DEG higher and it has a stable and forgiving edge. As I have only two ZDP knives (both dual-bevel) I cannot achieve and play with comparable extreme angles in ZDP, as I'm being limited to about 13DEG/side at the lowest. I took my Jess Horn ZDP to that angle, and it's still far from the limits of that steel. Note that the Horn is laminated and probably a bit lower in hardness than the Mule.

[thebestnoobcake]

This man has a LOT of Spydies! I feel that shipping to Australia is a bit steep, but just imagine shipping to Russia! I shudder at the thought..

Good luck with this case anyway!

[The Mastiff]

how am I wrong?

You're pretty confused. Is that a good enough answer?

[The Mastiff]

Arnon, That's a pretty impressive pencil. I wouldn't mess with it!