am i being to critical?

[aebfroman]

Well in comparing an AK to a pocket knife I'm not trying to be very nuanced am I?

[Scottie3000]

I'm pondering the same problem. I just received my CF ZDP Stretch and it has vertical play. Ive never had this in any other 'high end" spyderco although I almost expect it in the Delica/Endura series. I'm trying to exchange it now, if that doesn't work, I think I'll try sending it in. The only concern is I have a Delica 3 now that has a good amount of vertical play and Spyderco said they cannot repair it (SS handle). If my knife starts out with play, I think its just going to get worse. It just rock back and forth with each use until it eventually widens the tolerances even more. I'm almost sure thats what happened with my SS Delica.

[FLYcrash]

Wow, I must be either lucky or obtuse, because I've never detected blade play in a Spyderco. They've all felt solid as can be, both open and closed.

[Toast]

thanks for the feedback guys. im gonna send to spyderco. i trust they will do the right thing, as they've always done :)

Please let up know how it goes. The G10 Caly I had, though very briefly, did not have noticeable play but I only had it for a few days (I was pretty stupid and thought I somehow jumped on a CF version for a screaming deal...). I would be a bit annoyed at noticeable play with a $100 knife. There are many more expensive knives but for some of us $100 is a ton of money.

[Toast]

The Deacon mentioned that few in the knife industry attempt to make a mid lock and that just about anyone can make a decent frame lock. What are the benefits of the harder to implement design? Is it still licensed through Al Mar or is it just that much harder to make? Many of Spyderco's hard use knives use a different lock type with no complaints that I have seen of lack of smoothness. What is the benefit if it is harder to make?

[The Deacon]

The benefit over both framelocks and conventional liner locks is that the midlock is fully ambidextrous. It is also stronger than a liner lock, at least as strong as the framelock, and, at in the eyes of some, allows a more finished looking knife than a framelock does. Look hard enough and you will find complaints of vertical and horizontal blade play involving both those locks as well and definitely more complaints of lock failure against liner locks. You will also find proportionately more complains of off centered blades made againt them. Not to mention the complaints by people who think every liner or framelock's lockbar should sit in one specific spot on the blade tang and consider deviation from that, in either direction, to be a defect.

[Toast]

Not to discount what you are saying but I have not seen many but perhaps there are many in the brands I tend not to purchase. I will trust to your experience. As a general impression, and my personal preference, is that liner locks, for the most part, are not in the same category as a frame lock or back long on any decent design.

From what you have said the midlock largest advantage is basically looks or personal preference. Certainly, they seem to make a ton of sense with carbon fiber or other high scale grips or handles. The only other alternative to a midlock or back lock in these designs seems to be the liner lock, which I feel and you state has significant disadvantages. Thank you for your input.

[The Deacon]

Glad to help. While, in the end, everything is, to a large extent, personal preference I don't think you're putting a high enough value on ambidexterity. Believe it or not, even some right handed people have enough foresight to realize that some day when it's least convenient, they may be forced to operate a knife with their other hand. That's always going to be easiest to do with a hand-neutral lock, so at least some folks will seek such a lock for that reason.

Regarding strength, framelocks are not necessarily stronger than liner locks. I've seen and handled a number of them where the lock side handle slab was thinner than the liner on an equivalent size well made liner lock and at least one where the lock side slab was thin enough to flex when squeezed. I'd trust a well made liner lock, like the Military or CF Sage, over many low end framelocks.

[iwolf81]

I never notice any vertical play in my EDC Caly3 until I looked for it after finding some in my new USN Endura. Even then, it was only perceptible when I put my anal-retentive engineer's hat on.

I may now have a stronger appreciation for compression/liner/handle lock knives such as my D2 Para and ATR, but I'm not getting rid of my Delica's, Endura, or Caly3's for micro blade play.

Regards,
Ira

[Toast]

I agree that ambidexterity is likely an important consideration. Sorry I have discounted it, I am pretty much ambidextrous myself and have no problem opening or closing any liner or frame lock knife I currently own. The only ones I have had significant issue with are the M16 line from CRKT. I do not care for the design and have given mine away.

What you say about cheap frame locks can be said for cheap any type of lock. Currently the only liner lock I own in a G10 Tyrade but, as you say, its liner is thicker than many frame locks. I personally will trust a well made any type of lock more than a low end any type of lock, though liner locks are lowest on my trust scale at any given price point.

[markg]

Franco, we could go back and forth on this till **** freezes over. I've said it before, I'll say it again, I think your argument is based on false assumptions. For one thing, I doubt Chris Reeve could deliver a midlock with a guarantee of zero vertical play, for the price of a Sebenza. You are comparing the RIL framelock, which is the simplest lock to build and which almost everyone who fancies themselves to be a knifemaker builds, to one which very few attempt. Even some of the best knifemakers simply refuse to build one.

You are assuming, I believe incorrectly, that the only issue is tolerances, and by making those smaller you would solve the vertical play issue without introducing any other cost increasing factor. I think you are wrong. I think it would increase the amount of hand fitting required for each knife which would, in turn, increase the unit cost.

You are also assuming that, in "solving" one problem, you will not create another. Again I think you are wrong. I believe that, in the process of solving an annoying, but harmless problem, you would create a new one, a knife which, if opened slowly, or having the slightest bit of foreign material in the lock notch, would, at best, leave the lockbar slightly elevated above the handle and, at worst, not lock up properly. So, to fix that, you'd have to increase the spring tension on the lockbar, which would in turn cause folks to complain about how difficult the knife was to open and close.


But, to answer your question, I seriously doubt many people would be willing to pay $350 for a G-10 Caly 3 which sells here for less than a third that price. So in the context of this thread, yes, a jump from $110 to $350 would be a tremendous INCREASE in the cost of the knife.

He pretty much hit the nail on the head with this. :)