New model announcements - "Persistence"

[SaturnNyne]

That's a bad thing? Typically, you want it to be pretty close to the edge starting out from new, so as it wears it has plenty of room to move across the width of the tang.

Thank you, I hadn't given that issue much thought, so that makes me feel a bit better about it. Most of my lock experience is with axis and front locks, and, aside from the little Cricket, my only liners were on cheap knives long ago, so I'm not terribly familiar with how they're supposed to be. It still looks like a surprisingly shallow engagement to me since the liner edge hangs just past the edge of the tang, but I gently tested it when I noticed that and found it able to take high force with no sign of a problem, so I'm not worried about it. And definitely no other complaints about the lock; I can't believe how solid and play-free it is. This knife feels solid for this price point or any other.

[The Deacon]

From EDGE-U-CATION, Why does Spyderco manufacture Spyderedge (serrated) blades? Is this shop destroying too many blades trying to put serrations on? You can't make a serious work knife without serrations. Anywhere from 40 to 75% would make me very happy. I'll put them on myself if I have to, but few people are going to do that. Also, some info claims "Skeletonized steel liners tucked inside the handle,... without adding non-functional weight or bulkiness". I know it would have added time/labor/cost/shop equipment/possibly more errors and wasted material. Or was there a functional issue with nested liners?

I'm betting the maker is the same one doing the Tenacious, which does come in serrated. Besides, Spyderco's normal response to a problem with making serrations would be to educate the maker's staff. So, perhaps a more likely answer would be that the general market for these knives disagrees with your perception that serrations are necessary and sales of the SE Tenacious did not justify making a serrated version of the Persistence.

As for the liners, I tend to think both the Tenacious and Persistence are aimed at buyers with somewhat less sophisticated tastes than those of most on these forums. These buyers tend to equate bulk and weight with strength and are more comfortable buying a knife with visible liners than one with handles which appear to be "just plastic". Not sure how the costs work out, might just be a wash. They do require extra work to mill the pockets for the liners, but less "fussy work" is needed to finish the perimeter of the liners and mate them to scales.

[tap]

I'm betting the maker is the same one doing the Tenacious, which does come in serrated. Besides, Spyderco's normal response to a problem with making serrations would be to educate the maker's staff. So, perhaps a more likely answer would be that the general market for these knives disagrees with your perception that serrations are necessary and sales of the SE Tenacious did not justify making a serrated version of the Persistence.

As for the liners, I tend to think both the Tenacious and Persistence are aimed at buyers with somewhat less sophisticated tastes than those of most on these forums. These buyers tend to equate bulk and weight with strength and are more comfortable buying a knife with visible liners than one with handles which appear to be "just plastic". Not sure how the costs work out, might just be a wash. They do require extra work to mill the pockets for the liners, but less "fussy work" is needed to finish the perimeter of the liners and mate them to scales.

Reading elsewhere indicates that the plan was to offer the PE first. We don't know how many Tenacious blades get wasted in attempting to put serrations on (or any other knife in any shop/country). It clearly is more difficult that putting a PE on. The general market for these two knives ends up being a broad spectrum of knife users. Apple peelers? NO. "Made in" is still an issue for some. I suspect that teeth will come very soon.

[dolphincry]

thnks for the update!

[The Deacon]

Reading elsewhere indicates that the plan was to offer the PE first. We don't know how many Tenacious blades get wasted in attempting to put serrations on (or any other knife in any shop/country). It clearly is more difficult that putting a PE on. The general market for these two knives ends up being a broad spectrum of knife users. Apple peelers? NO. "Made in" is still an issue for some. I suspect that teeth will come very soon.

So you think Spyderco dropped the serrated version of the Caly 3 because the maker wasted too many blades? Or perhaps because it only appeals to apple peelers? I'd be curious to know, overall, which edge type generates more rejects. Because, while more complex looking, my gut feeling is that the very complexity of the serrations might just be able hide a multitude of minor cosmetic goofs that would cause a plain edged blade to be labeled a second.

As for the rest, my point was that other possible explanations exist and, since it's reasonably logical to assume that the Persistence is aimed a the same "market share" which has already accepted the Tenacious, if the sales of the serrated Tenacious were lackluster then that could account for the Persistence being offered in plain edge only.

[sal]

Hi SaturnNyne,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum. Hope you enjoy your time here.

As far as Walker Linerlocks go, as mentioned, geometry is sophisticated and will take a while for you to learn those details, assuming you choose to learn on that level. There are many things that Spyderco does that are not obvious and take a greater understanding to appreciate.

Regarding serrations. A very complicated subject indeed. We have been putting serations on knives and testing same for 27 years. We've learned a great deal about their performance. Most of our cometitors have followed our lead in this area, but, in my opinion, have not really achieved the same results.

We have found that very few makers can actually make them just as we designed them. Most makers have there own ideas, which is often challenging as they have little testing or feedback to go on. Their ideas are based on manufacturing convenience, or what "looks cool".

The maker of the Tenacious and Persistence has made serrated knives for a competitor and he believes that is the way to make them. Even though that competitor has less experience with serrations than we do.

If we cannot get the maker to make the serrations as we want them, sales are often slow because our customers are accustomed to a certain performance. We made many Tenacious pcs with serrations, both partial and full. We have them in inventory. They work "OK", but not to where we want them to be. They work better after they have been sharpened on a Sharpmaker several times, but Tenacious and persistence customers do not usually have Sharpmakers.

As we work with the makers and teach them our ways with teeth, you will see more of them on some models which do not now have them. We rarely lose any blades due to putting serrations on.

Afi models on the other hand will not usually have teeth. Our Afi customers prefer to play with, use and sharpen plain edges, unless they have specific needs (working on a boat, etc).

sal

[The Deacon]

Regarding serrations. A very complicated subject indeed. We have been putting serations on knives and testing same for 27 years. We've learned a great deal about their performance. Most of our cometitors have followed our lead in this area, but, in my opinion, have not really achieved the same results.

We have found that very few makers can actually make them just as we designed them. Most makers have there own ideas, which is often challenging as they have little testing or feedback to go on. Their ideas are based on manufacturing convenience, or what "looks cool".

The maker of the Tenacious and Persistence has made serrated knives for a competitor and he believes that is the way to make them. Even though that competitor has less experience with serrations than we do.

If we cannot get the maker to make the serrations as we want them, sales are often slow because our customers are accustomed to a certain performance. We made many Tenacious pcs with serrations, both partial and full. We have them in inventory. They work "OK", but not to where we want them to be. They work better after they have been sharpened on a Sharpmaker several times, but Tenacious and persistence customers do not usually have Sharpmakers.

As we work with the makers and teach them our ways with teeth, you will see more of them on some models which do not now have them. We rarely lose any blades due to putting serrations on.

Afi models on the other hand will not usually have teeth. Our Afi customers prefer to play with, use and sharpen plain edges, unless they have specific needs (working on a boat, etc).

sal

Intersting stuff. For those, like me, who may be wondering, from the "back" side, the "scallops" of the serrations on the Tenacious look very much like those on a full flat ground Seki model...

[CENTER][/CENTER]

...however from the "front" the actual grinds are much lower and look quite different...

[CENTER][/CENTER]

[sal]

Both of those makers have not been able to get there.....yet.

sal

[SaturnNyne]

Hi SaturnNyne,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum. Hope you enjoy your time here.

As far as Walker Linerlocks go, as mentioned, geometry is sophisticated and will take a while for you to learn those details, assuming you choose to learn on that level. There are many things that Spyderco does that are not obvious and take a greater understanding to appreciate.

Hi Sal, it's very nice to be back in the Spyderco world, thank you for the welcome and reassurance about the lock. I initially thought the lockup looked different from what I knew and expected, but after hearing from others and using the knife for a few days, I now have no concerns about it at all; this little knife is rock solid, well beyond what I'd consider reasonable expectations at this market segment. The Persistence seems very well designed in every way and will certainly be my new top recommendation when friends are looking for an affordable edc. And I'm well aware of the attention to detail that goes into your designs, that's part of why I originally came to this brand. :)

Thank you also for the serration information, I had no idea you had such difficulty getting them manufactured to your specifications. It makes me curious to try them in their best form; I wonder if I should get my Manix with teeth so I can compare them to my Seki versions.... The only thing that's been holding me back is my reluctance to obsolete my trusty SE Native 3. Oh well, I'm getting off topic.

[chp5]

H STi,

Why do you think the handle should be smaller?

When we design a smaller knife, it's very important to us that the knife is still ergonomic. It always amazes me that when deigners make a smaller version, they seem to just "shrink" up the handle and then it's too small for an adult's hand.

sal

Agreed - a prime example of that is the BM Mini-Grip - good knife but the handle is too small and ruins the ergos for me.

I love the Tenacious and order the Persistence today from Knife Center.

[angusW]

I just received mine today. I like the little guy. It has a bit more jimping than the Tenacious, the blade is a bit broader and shorter, the handle a bit smaller but overall looks like a Tenacious. It snaps open and the lock feels very secure. It wasn't the sharpest but a bit on the SharpMaker and it's pretty good now.

One problem. I wanted to remove the clip for LHC. I read this thread before getting it so I knew it was an Allen key, not torx. I even inspected it with a magnifying glass just to be sure. I used the correct Allen key but one of the screws is stripped and I'm unable to remove the clip. If anyone has any ideas on removing the one screw I would love to hear it. If I have to pay for shipping for warranty from Canada, it wouldn't be worth it. I'll just get rid of it. Suffice to say I'm a bit disappointed as this is my second Spyderco in a row that had clip issues. Mind you, other companies don't even attempt LHC.

[BeefTips]

angus,

Good luck trying to get that last screw out. I still have the mangled remains of a clip screw stuck in my Persistence. Charlynn did send me some new screws, so I was able to attach the clip the way I want it.

BeefTips

[angusW]

I'm thinking of cutting a slot in the head of the screw with a dremel then just using a flat screwdriver to take it out. Another option is drilling it out. With the right size bit it should be just enough not to damage the scales.

BeefTips, are the new screws you received torx or Allen?

[BeefTips]

They actually seemed to be torx.

[raven]

Hey gents, If you decide to cut that slot in the screw for a flathead screwdriver ...let me suggest after that, do one of two things that have helped me remove a stripped screw

1.) Put the end of with the stripped screw in boiling water. This may soften up the adhesive holding the screw in place enough to remove it, or

2.) Use a soldering iron to do the same.

Not sure if spyderco used Loc-tite or not??? Of course I didn't see any blue adhesive or red ...it was a clear/white adhesive. I'm sure someone will chime in that has the knowledge of what Spyderco uses to keep their screws in place.

As for what type of screws ...when I looked through a strong magnifying glass I did observe allen head screws in the Persistence I have. Hope this helps some :o . Take Good Care, Be Safe Always, and Good Luck removing the stripped screws.

God Bless :)


-raven-

[iwolf81]

Afi models on the other hand will not usually have teeth. Our Afi customers prefer to play with, use and sharpen plain edges, unless they have specific needs (working on a boat, etc).

sal

Now that I'm chasing down an ATR SE and have purchased six Spyderco knives in the past month, I think I can safely classify myself as an 'Afi'. However, I might not be your typical Afi...

To me, a Spyderco is not a Spyderco unless it has a SpyderEdge. As an engineer and old Boy Scout, I truly appreciate the well-designed, well-built, and practical aspects of Spyderco knives. IMHO the SE blades offer more functionality than the PE ones, which is why I get disappointed with Afi models that don't have SE blades.

I'm not into collecting safe queens (though I do believe in redundancy, especially for my favorite sprint and discontinued models.) Now that I've been bitten by the Spyder bug, I'll continue to purchase Afi models that I can self-justify as fulfilling some practical EDC need. I have made exceptions for the D2 Para and ZDP-189 Mule, mainly due to their steels, but I’ll be less likely to purchase more Afi models such as the just-announced Manix 2 CF if they don’t have a SpyderEdge.

Regards,
Ira

[angusW]

Thanks for the tip Raven. Like you said, after the slot was cut I then heated it with a soldering iron and I was able to get it out. I looks like there is some white loctite on it but not too sure about that.

I contacted Charlynn in customer service and she is going to send some new screws my way with no questions asked. Spyderco really knows how to take care of their customers.

Just wondering if someone could tell me what type of screws these are. Torx or Allen? This is a pic of my persistence.

[jabba359]

Just wondering if someone could tell me what type of screws these are. Torx or Allen? This is a pic of my persistence.

Those are Allen, as they have flat sides. Torx are more of a six-pointed star shape, like this:

[angusW]

Thanks Jabba. I was just making sure I wasn't going crazy. I was told by someone that is a torx.

[raven]

Thanks for the tip Raven. Like you said, after the slot was cut I then heated it with a soldering iron and I was able to get it out. I looks like there is some white loctite on it but not too sure about that.

I contacted Charlynn in customer service and she is going to send some new screws my way with no questions asked. Spyderco really knows how to take care of their customers.

Just wondering if someone could tell me what type of screws these are. Torx or Allen? This is a pic of my persistence.

Not a problem .. just glad you were able to get the screw out and have a new set on the way . Like already mentioned ... those are definitely allen head screws. Just curious if Spyderco has a torx screw size that is compatible with this model ... One could replace all the allen screws??? Just a thought :o . Take Good Care and Be Safe Always.

God Bless :)


-raven-