YANWDW Sharpmaker

[Swedge]

YANWDW Sharpmaker = Yet Another Newbie With Difficulties with Sharpmaker

Yes, I am yet another purchaser of the Sharpmaker who has trouble getting it to work like I expect. Operator error, no doubt. Hopefully, you can straighten me out. Or at least help me straighten out my edges. :D

First I sharpened some cheap knives just to get practice in learning how to get the stroke down. I have a decent stroke now, though it could still use improvement.

Then I tried sharpening my Spin with VG-10 steel. At first, it seemed to be getting sharper as I tested it on paper from time to time as I was sharpening it. Great. Then it seemed to be getting less sharp, ripping the paper instead of slicing. WTF? After some examination, I determined that I had a tiny ridge on one side of the edge of the blade that I could detect only by running my fingernail from the spine to the edge. One side was clean, and the other had this ridge. I hesitate to call it a burr since the drawings of a burr that I have seen always show it at right angles to the blade. It seems like it was more like a burr that had folded over, a rolled edge.

The rolled edge was on the right-hand side (back) of the blade as I hold the knife between the Sharpmaker rods.

I was told to use the diamond rods (which I have) and do 100 strokes to take off the rolled edge. I took out the diamond rods, set the angle at 30 degrees and went to work. It was probably more like 300 or 400 strokes. I did both sides, though some extra on the side with the rolled edge. Then I went to the coarse stones and then the fine. Eventually, the ridge went away either entirely or almost entirely. The knife slices fine now.

Then I took my new Delica 4 with zdp-189 steel and tried sharpening that. Same result! Again, the rolled edge was on the right-hand side (back) of the blade as I hold the knife between the Sharpmaker rods.

Why did this happen? Did I use more pressure on the left-hand side (obverse) of the blade since I am right-handed and can push in to the right with my right hand more easily than I can push out to the left? After my experience with the Spin, I tried making sure that I was using even pressure on both sides.

Did I sharpen the edge too much and the edge was so fine it rolled?

It seems odd that both times with quality steel I ended up with a rolled edge on the same side.

What am I doing wrong?

And is there a solution to getting rid of the rolled edge other than taking out the diamond rods, setting the angle at 30 degrees and putting the knife through 300 or 400 strokes?

Oh, this is my first post, so Hi, all!

[gunmike1]

It is a burr. Check if it is on the opposite side of the side you do your last stroke on, as this will generally be where the burr will end up. Use less pressure, and you can help to eliminate it by raising your angle slightly with very little pressure for your finishing strokes. Also, more does not always equal better, as too many strokes will raise a burr. I recommend getting a loupe, or better yet a lighted microscope from radioshack ($10) to look at your edge as you sharpen. Once you raise that burr you will have to get rid of it, usually raising your angle does this. If it keeps flip flopping sides (to the opposite of the last side you did a sharpening stroke on) you may have to very lightly cut straight into the stone to remove that burr and start over. Also, you could be only hitting the edge on one side and hitting the shoulder of the bevel on the other side (using a sharpie on the bevels before sharpening will show you where the bevel is being sharpened), but it sounds like you are just sharpening with either too much force or too many strokes (or both) and with practice you will be getting the really sharp edges you crave. For me the lighted microscope was the key that first got me over the hump to sharp, burr free edges.

Mike

[THG]

As Gunmike said, it's a burr. I HATE burrs... I have a bigger problem with them on softer steels like VG-10 than on harder ones like ZDP.

On the softer steels, the burr just seems to flop back and forth... I use a DMT Aligner clamp which has 7 different angle settings. I profile the knife on one angle, and if there is a burr, I get rid of it by using a higher angle and grinding. Then I have to profile again using 1 stroke per side. The trick after grinding at the higher angle is to do everything evenly: you want to move toward the edge at the same time on both sides. If one side gets to the edge first, you'll start a burr.

You can remove burrs by sharpening at a higher angle, cutting straight into the stone (which will probably take longer), or cutting into something (I use cardboard as it is aggressive/abraisive).

It's something you'll need to practice, and your schema, your mental idea, of sharpening will have to adapt many times before you get it right. Good luck.

[Swedge]

Use less pressure, and you can help to eliminate it by raising your angle slightly with very little pressure for your finishing strokes.

I take it you mean that I should use less pressure the whole time I am sharpening and then even less at the end.

I am unclear as to what you mean by "raising your angle." Do you mean that that the spine is tipped more to the opposite stone?

Also, more does not always equal better, as too many strokes will raise a burr.

I think that this may have been the source of my problem! Even though I alternate strokes between the two stones, I think I need to check for a burr with my fingernail much more often so I get a better idea of when I've done too much. I was relying on cutting paper every 10 passes (left and right).

I recommend getting a loupe, or better yet a lighted microscope from radioshack ($10) to look at your edge as you sharpen.

I did get a loupe, the Belomo 10x, which comes highly recommended. But there are two problems with it. First "more does not always equal better" when it comes to magnification. 10x means shallower depth of field, which requires the object to be in a precise location to focus. Not so much with a diamond or other gem, but a knife blade is much bigger. And, second, a knife blade is not translucent, which means that there's not enough light. I will go to RS and buy the lighted microscope.

Once you raise that burr you will have to get rid of it, usually raising your angle does this. If it keeps flip flopping sides (to the opposite of the last side you did a sharpening stroke on) you may have to very lightly cut straight into the stone to remove that burr and start over.

By straight cut, you mean at right angles to the corner of the triangle?

Also, you could be only hitting the edge on one side and hitting the shoulder of the bevel on the other side (using a sharpie on the bevels before sharpening will show you where the bevel is being sharpened), but it sounds like you are just sharpening with either too much force or too many strokes (or both)

I did try the Sharpie trick on the first knife (the Spin), and it looked like I wasn't hitting the shoulder of the bevel of either side, but I didn't do it on the next one, the Delica 4. After the problem with the Spin, I lessened the pressure, but maybe not enough. And I think that I had too many strokes.

Thanks.

[Swedge]

I HATE burrs...

Me too!

You can remove burrs by sharpening at a higher angle, cutting straight into the stone (which will probably take longer), or cutting into something (I use cardboard as it is aggressive/abraisive).

I will try cutting into cardboard. I was using a clean piece of cardboard to strop a bit, but cutting into it sounds like a good idea.

It's something you'll need to practice, and your schema, your mental idea, of sharpening will have to adapt many times before you get it right.

Hey, I'm an American. I want instant gratification! :D But I will take your sound advice and keep at it.

Thanks.

[gunmike1]

I take it you mean that I should use less pressure the whole time I am sharpening and then even less at the end.

Yes

I am unclear as to what you mean by "raising your angle." Do you mean that that the spine is tipped more to the opposite stone?

Correct, you tilt the knife to create a larger angle.

I think that this may have been the source of my problem! Even though I alternate strokes between the two stones, I think I need to check for a burr with my fingernail much more often so I get a better idea of when I've done too much. I was relying on cutting paper every 10 passes (left and right).

Yes, a lot of times Spyderco knives are ground very thin, and if you are grinding at a larger angle than the factory angle it only takes 5-10 passes a lot of times to bring back a dull knife to sharp. Another way to check for a burr is if it is shaving on both arms. If it shaves on one arm and not so good on the other you probably have a burr.

I did get a loupe, the Belomo 10x, which comes highly recommended. But there are two problems with it. First "more does not always equal better" when it comes to magnification. 10x means shallower depth of field, which requires the object to be in a precise location to focus. Not so much with a diamond or other gem, but a knife blade is much bigger. And, second, a knife blade is not translucent, which means that there's not enough light. I will go to RS and buy the lighted microscope.

The Radioshack microscope is more magnified and reversed, so it can be tricky. If you already have the 10X loupe then just use it under a very bright light so you can see what is going on. It takes practice to get used to using loupes or especially the lighted microscope (60-100X and reversed) but once you get used to them they are maybe the most important tool in your sharpening kit because you can actually see what is going on with the edge. You can see if you are polishing the shoulder or the bevel, or if your new grit has completely removed the scratches from your previous grit. Just use light and keep practicing with your loupe, I guarantee it will be worth the wait when you finally get used to it. Just try to get it in focus near the choil, the run the loupe along the knife until you get to the tip so you can check your progress along the whole edge.

By straight cut, you mean at right angles to the corner of the triangle?

I mean very lightly act like you are trying to slice the stone into two pieces. This will completely dull the knife, but a couple light passes will completely remove the burr to allow you to sharpen on good steel, not a weakened burr that won't go away. This is only for the biggest burrs that can't be removed by raising the angle.

I did try the Sharpie trick on the first knife (the Spin), and it looked like I wasn't hitting the shoulder of the bevel of either side, but I didn't do it on the next one, the Delica 4. After the problem with the Spin, I lessened the pressure, but maybe not enough. And I think that I had too many strokes.

Try it on the Delica as well just to check, but you are hitting the edge on the spin. Finding the right pressure takes a lot of practice. It took me a long time to figure out just how much pressure I needed to use. On non-recurve or serrated or hawkbill blades I recommend only using the flats of the stone. The corners do cut more aggressively, but you are putting all of the pressure of your sharpening stroke over the tiny surface area of the corner of the stone, making it easy to raise a burr if you aren't light with your pressure. It takes a lot of time and practice to find the right pressure. Different steels will take different pressure, as well. You are trying to find a pressure heavy enough to abrade the steel but light enough not to raise a burr. It just takes time and practice, and once you "get" it and it all comes together for you you will feel very rewarded. Another trick for those that can't get rid of tiny burrs is to strop them off, but you have to be very careful not to round the edge when you do this as leather strops have give to them and using pressure rounds over your edge. You can get 3M microabrasive film sheets with a PSA backing (they are like stickers) to stick to the sharpmaker rods that work very well at removing tiny burrs, or just plain polishing a burr free edge when used with a hard backing like glass or a sharpmaker rod. You would use a backwards stroke with the spine coming back toward you instead of the edge leading into the stone. A 1 micron Micron abrasive sheet (.3 micron after that for an overkill edge) would work well for that, but I would recommend getting a burr free edge without using the sheets first. If you must get the 3M lapping film Tools for Working Wood has those sheets in packs of 5.

Good luck and be sure to practice, Mike

[Swedge]

Years ago, I had a lighted pocket microscope that RS made (but no longer do) but the magnification wasn't anywhere near 60x. I thought you were referring to that. It looked a lot like this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Resource ... B0009K6K0A

I think I'll start working with a good lamp when I use my loupe but will also check out illuminated magnifiers/microscopes.

I am grateful for all your advice. Thank you.

[Swedge]

Total and utter frustration here.

I've tried the tips I've gotten, and I must not be applying them correctly.

I understand that getting razor sharp edges takes skill, but the Sharpmaker is supposed to allow the ordinary person to take a knife and make it reasonably sharp. Now my D4 can't even cut paper totally cleanly. There's a little rip at the end.

I've tried light pressure, harder pressure, reprofiling at 30 degrees with diamond rods, sharpening at 40 degrees, using only the flats, cutting across the corner to start over, you name it. Maybe my burrs are getting smaller since I can't really see them with the loupe and I can't feel them with my fingernail, but I'm pretty sure they're there since (1) while the edge feels sharp, it feels a bit sharper on one side, and (2) the blade cuts like crap.

Every time the burr seems to be on the left side. It doesn't seem to matter which side I end up on, and it doesn't seem to matter if I do more strokes on the left side. It's always on the left.

The saving grace here is that one of the reasons I decide to work on the D4 was that I was intending to send it to Tom Krein for a regrind in the first place. I figured that even if I screwed the edge, it wouldn't matter.

It's all very discouraging.

P.S. Off to Radio Shack for a lighted microscope!

[gunmike1]

Did you do the sharpie on the D4? If one side was ground over 20 degrees at the factory, which can happen, and you don't rebevel it all the way to the edge to get it below 20 degrees you will never get it sharp. If you have verified it with the sharpie then keep trying at 40 degrees and you will get it quicker than you think. Trying to match Spyderco sharpness is a skill that takes a LOT of time to get, and most people give up before reaching that level.

If you do send the knife in to Tom Krein you will be rewarded with a knife that cuts much better than stock and will be easier to sharpen, but you will still have to figure out how to solve the burr issue. Keep practicing and have patience and before you know it these burrs will be a thing of the past.

Mike

[mr_bsii]

Just reinforcing what Gunmike (and others) said. Do the sharpie trick. I had a delica that spent MUCH time on a DMT coarse propped up on a Sharpmaker. The side that was the most obtuse was the same one that you're having trouble with. It was more obtuse than the 15 degree setting of the sharpmaker. For a long time, I was only hitting the cutting edge on one side of the sharpmaker. If you find that the grind is what's causing your problem, be prepared for some serious stroking to reprofile the back bevel. Diamond rod or no, it'll take you a while. By the way, my experience was almost exactly the same as yours. Lots o' strokin'. Seems sharp. Isn't sharp. More strokin'. Seems sharp. Isn't sharp. More strokin'. What finally broke it for me was the combo of using a sharpie and a loupe. Keep at it, and good luck.

A side note, and not to steer you from Spyderco on this forum (my favorites are spidies), but the first knife of reasonable quality that I was able to feel what was going on and to put a really good edge on was a Case Trapper in CV steel. I guess it's softer or abrades more quickly or something, but it was definitely easier to learn on than VG 10. The advice you're getting here is sage and good, and these are the same guys that helped me.

bs

[vampyrewolf]

If this thread doesn't help, let me know. I've got a few more tricks up my sleeve.

[Swedge]

Or is it round 4, 6, or 10? I'm feeling a little punchdrunk!

I am going to ask a series of questions. Maybe step by step I can get to where I want to go.

Just to make sure I am using the proper terminology (or at least that you can understand what I'm trying say in case the terminology is wrong), it's my understanding that as you hold the knife in your hand with the edge downward, the right-hand side of the blade is the "back" of the blade and the left-hand side is the "obverse." In the case of my D4, the Spyderco spider mark is on the obverse and "Seki-City" is on the back.

I did use the Sharpie and I found that the right-hand stone was hitting the shoulder of the back side of the blade, the one where the burr keeps popping up. (I mistakenly referred to that as the left side in last night's rant.)

I used the diamond stones at 30° to try to even out the edges, but I admit (now that I think about it) that I didn't re-try the Sharpie to make sure that they were even.

I want to start from scratch (no pun intended). Let's assume that the edge is all fouled up. Not nicked or abused, just looking like someone who didn't know what he was doing took a ceramic stone to it and did it all wrong. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

1. Do I start by cutting at right angles across the coarse stone? I tried that before, and while it worked great at dulling the edge, it didn't remover the burr.

2. To make sure that my bevel is an equal 30° on each side, should I start with the diamond stones at 30°? Start with corners or the flats?

3. How often should I be re-applying the Sharpie to check the bevel?

4. Do I alternate every stroke? Or do I start on the back (using the right-hand stone) and keep going until I feel a burr on the obverse edge?

Up to now, I have been following the method outlined in the DVD, which is to alternate every stroke (except when I got frustrated and tried to whittle down the burr).

5. When do I switch to the coarse stone?

Vampyrewolf, in the other thread, you refer to the "grey flats" as well as the "brown flats" and the "white flats." What stone is the grey one? Mine are brown and white.

I have been learning to use less pressure, and I have been setting it on a table and standing up. And you're right, I can detect smaller burrs now.

Thanks to all for the help.

[Swedge]

What exactly does the burr look like when using a 10x loupe? :confused:

Sometimes I see what look like tiny balls on the edge. Is that the sign of a burr (or portion of a burr)?

Does the burr look like a tiny, tiny wire along the edge?

[vampyrewolf]

Or is it round 4, 6, or 10? I'm feeling a little punchdrunk!

I am going to ask a series of questions. Maybe step by step I can get to where I want to go.

Just to make sure I am using the proper terminology (or at least that you can understand what I'm trying say in case the terminology is wrong), it's my understanding that as you hold the knife in your hand with the edge downward, the right-hand side of the blade is the "back" of the blade and the left-hand side is the "obverse." In the case of my D4, the Spyderco spider mark is on the obverse and "Seki-City" is on the back.

I did use the Sharpie and I found that the right-hand stone was hitting the shoulder of the back side of the blade, the one where the burr keeps popping up. (I mistakenly referred to that as the left side in last night's rant.)

I used the diamond stones at 30° to try to even out the edges, but I admit (now that I think about it) that I didn't re-try the Sharpie to make sure that they were even.

I want to start from scratch (no pun intended). Let's assume that the edge is all fouled up. Not nicked or abused, just looking like someone who didn't know what he was doing took a ceramic stone to it and did it all wrong. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

1. Do I start by cutting at right angles across the coarse stone? I tried that before, and while it worked great at dulling the edge, it didn't remover the burr.

I usually start with a 500 grit AO stone at 30-40deg to form an edge, though the grey stone (medium ceramics) will work well enough with the 204 as a starting point. If you still have to form a bevel then you already said you have the diamonds. I've used a file, a bench grinder, a dremel, 200 and 300 grit AO stones to set bevels in the past.

2. To make sure that my bevel is an equal 30° on each side, should I start with the diamond stones at 30°? Start with corners or the flats?

if you have to set a bevel, use the diamond stones on the corners at 30deg, then move to the flats to smooth it out before hitting the medium ceramics

3. How often should I be re-applying the Sharpie to check the bevel?

any time you aren't sure if you are hitting the bevel. If you are holding the knife right vertical there isn't an issue and you can check it when you switch stones or surfaces

4. Do I alternate every stroke? Or do I start on the back (using the right-hand stone) and keep going until I feel a burr on the obverse edge?

To start with you want to form a burr, knocking it back and forth a few times with fewer strokes. After that initial burr is gone you want to do 2-3 strokes on each side alternating, and eventually single strokes per side alternating.

Up to now, I have been following the method outlined in the DVD, which is to alternate every stroke (except when I got frustrated and tried to whittle down the burr).

5. When do I switch to the coarse stone?

The medium and fine stones will do it all once a bevel is set.

Vampyrewolf, in the other thread, you refer to the "grey flats" as well as the "brown flats" and the "white flats." What stone is the grey one? Mine are brown and white.

I blame that on my brain not working :p I've refered to the medium grit as both grey and brown My medium stone is a greyish-brown :rolleyes:

I have been learning to use less pressure, and I have been setting it on a table and standing up. And you're right, I can detect smaller burrs now.

Thanks to all for the help.

Standing up you only have to guide the blade, you use enough force without thinking about it. Eventually you barely even touch the stones as you you work on a polished edge.

[vampyrewolf]

What exactly does the burr look like when using a 10x loupe? :confused:

Sometimes I see what look like tiny balls on the edge. Is that the sign of a burr (or portion of a burr)?

Does the burr look like a tiny, tiny wire along the edge?

The best way I've found is with a flashlight. You're looking for a thin wire-like line on one side that reflects light.
Other way to check is running it over your thumbnail edge trailing. One side will be smooth the other will feel like it drags.

[Swedge]

To start with you want to form a burr, knocking it back and forth a few times with fewer strokes. After that initial burr is gone you want to do 2-3 strokes on each side alternating, and eventually single strokes per side alternating.

Just to be sure I understand, I start with stroking only one side until I raise a burr. Then I stroke only the other side until the burr is gone on that side and I raise a burr on the other side. Is that right?

[vampyrewolf]

yes, you WANT to form a burr on one side first, then force it back to the other side before you start knocking it back and forth.

The first time might take 20-30 strokes to form a burr, when it'll take 15-20 to force it to the other side, then maybe 10 to knock it back, and then 5-6 per side back and forth. Once that burr has been knocked back and forth a few times you can break it off a lot easier. Just raise the angle 5-10 deg on the stones or use a strop at a higher angle.

After a burr has been formed and removed you want to use LIGHT pressure on the stones to prevent forming a large burr (noticable) again.

[Swedge]

And should I be trying to raise a burr with the diamond stones?

[gunmike1]

And should I be trying to raise a burr with the diamond stones?

Yes, any time I set a new bevel thinner than the current bevel I raise a burr, 1 side at a time as mentioned already. You then alternate strokes to weaken the burr and then you raise the angle a bit to remove it. After that new bevel is set I try to not raise a burr by using light pressure. At this point after you set the 15 degree bevel I think you should sharpen at 20 degrees. That way you are working on a microbevel, which takes less strokes and makes it easier to avoid a burr. When you get more advanced you can put a thinner backbevel on and microbevel at 15 degrees if you want to explore high performance edges.

Mike

PS, listen to Vampyrewolf, he really knows what he is talking about. This whole post basically just parroted what he already said.

[mr_bsii]

Gunmike and Vamp are leading you the right way. My experience was exactly like yours (only hitting the cutting edge on one side). You need to spend some quality time at the 15 degree setting until the sharpie trick proves that you are getting all the way to the cutting edge. At that point you will have a 15 degree back bevel and most likely a burr to remove that has been pushed back to the other side of the blade.

Continue with burr removal proceedures that have been expertly described above, and then move to the 20 degrees per side setting to apply the micro bevel. Use really light pressure, and it shouldn't take many strokes at all to put on an almost microscopic cutting edge (micro bevel). Let us know how you do.

bs