PE and SE Uses

[MountainManJim]

With the recent discussion about the Spyderco serrated edge, I thought it would be useful for all of us experts to pull together a list of examples where the serrated edge and the plain edge excel and fall short. Surprisingly there is little information on this subject which I think would really benefit from having some hows, whys and concrete examples.

I hold the belief that both the SE and PE are simply two versions of man’s most useful tools. And that tools will, by their design, excel at specific tasks while falling short at other tasks.

So, I’ll start the discussion …

Serrated Edge - Preferred

Slicing: The SE’s domain is in slicing and it is here where this edge design really shines, especially for soft and fibrous materials. Held horizontally with the edge pointing down towards the material the blade can be drawn horizontally to slice through the material. The blade does not need to be tilted at an angle to the material, so one has great control on the depth of the cut. As the blade is drawn, the curved edges cut the material at numerous angles to cut quickly and efficiently. These features make the SE the preferred choice for:
1. Slicing soft material like bread, tomatoes, etc. This is because the slicing motion and force are not down, smashing the item, but across the material where it is not constrained.
2. Slicing rope. Again, because you can cut the rope without pushing it away, which is not an easy task with a rope that is not carrying any tension.
3. Sawing through cardboard and similar material. Not particularly neat, but fast.

Slippery Materials: The serration scallops tend to “grab” materials. I liken the scallops to numerous little hawkbills. This makes the SE preferred for slick materials like:
1. Wet materials
2. Plants
3. Wire ties
4. Poly rope
5. Plastic e.g. packaging, tapes
6. Fish. Apparently for quick initial processing of your fresh catch.

Edge Retention: The geometry of a SE has two features that extend the life of the sharpened edge. First, a significant increase is total length of the edge compared to a PE. The circumference of each scallop adds to the length of edge. This gives you more edge to use up. Second, the scallops move the cutting edge away from the edge of the blade. The material being cut must be drawn into the cutting edge. This protects the cutting edge from hard materials that might dull the edge. The SE sharpness is said to last 5 to 10 times longer than a PE.

Quick, Rough Cutting: With many materials the SE will leave a cut edge that is jagged, but the aggressive nature of the blade makes quick work of cutting chores. Hence, the SE is preferred to cutting where speed, not neatness counts.


Serrated Edge – Not Optimal

Fabric: The SE has a bit of a problem cutting fabrics especially cottons and other natural materials. The threads tend to get caught and the cutting can come to a halt as the edge essentially gets jammed. An experience cutting fabric with a SE is probably a primary reason why some avoid the SE, but that is unfortunate, since it just doesn’t do well with this material.

Nylon or Cotton Core Rope: As with fabric, the SE can catch on some ropes. Your results may vary.

Plain Edge - Preferred

Push Cutting: The PE wins when it comes to the push cut. Hence, the edge is preferred for:
1. Chopping. Items on the cutting board, trees, etc.
2. Batonning (sp?)
3. Whittling
4. Shaving
5. Scraping
6. Trimming materials
7. Cutting paper
8. Cutting thread and string. SE edges can get hung up and pull.

Slicing, Firm Materials: The PE is used for slicing firm materials where precise cuts are needed. Hence, it preferred for:
1. Filleting
2. Most food prep. Look at kitchen knife set, all PE blades except for the bread knife.
3. Skinning

Clean Cutting: The PE edge is preferred for making clean, neat, precise cuts.

Plain Edge – Not Optimal

Slicing Soft Materials: Most cuts with a PE are made with some slicing (motion perpendicular to the direction of the cut), but the primary force is in the direction of the cut i.e. you are pushing into the material. If the material is soft like a very ripe tomato, you can end up smashing the veggie. This is not to say that soft materials can not be cut with a PE. But, the edge must be very sharp to minimize the forces needed and the action must be primarily slicing. Often the blade can be angled such that the cut is not made perpendicular to the cutting board (for example), but parallel to the supporting surface.


Articles

http://www.ebladestore.com/plain_vs_serrated.shtml
http://www.missionknives.com/articles/Serrations.html


OK, now it’s your turn …

Jim

[tasmanH1salt]

So far I have used my SE tasman salt to cut mostly rope. I have cut a dinner roll with it and that worked very well and I also cut off the end of a wiffle ball bat and the SE cut thought that like it was nothing.

For the PE I mainly use that for cutting open boxes or taking a piece of string off my clothing or other small tasks like that. Never tried it on food or rope (guessing it would not work well on rope). For a PE I have a dragonfly (when it was still made with AUS-8)

[spydutch]

PE is best for shaving. Probably better than SE :)

For everything else, full Spyderedge all the way

[JD Spydo]

Hey great thread topic MountainMan Jim :) My problem is that I have so many things I now use Spyderco serrations for I may be using up a whole page listing them all :D

There is one chore I just came across at work recently that found my SE, 440V Native to work great on. I've been using many rolls of Electrician's Tape to do some repair work with and I have found that cutting slick vinyl or any type of rubberized tape that my SE, 440V Native really does it well. I'm even amazed at how straight it cuts and it doesn't leave any The problem I'm having is now everyone is literally standing in line to borrow my Native. I have always found electrician's tape to be somewhat of a problem to cut cleanly using a plain edge>> and keep in mind that my PE Spyders are usually super sharp>> But about a month or so ago I discovered that a Spyderco serrated blade works faster and smoother than a plain edge does on that type of tape.

I've also been opening at least 12 different types of factory packages daily as well and the 440V, SE Native just walks right through them. I encounter every type of packaging material imaginable but the SE, 440V Native eats them up. The 440V blade steel is so good that I've only had to resharpen the knife about once a week and it doesn't take but about 10 minutes to restore it to cutting like a laser again :cool:

Here recently most of my plain edge usage has been done with my PE Tasman Salt. I'll try to compile a good list for both later today. I want to see a huge response to this thread. And I hope Spyderco can use it to make a "user's chart" for new knife users. JD :spyder: O

[Lord vader]

My personal preference has always been a plain edge,If kept sharp it handles any project i put in it`s path without any difficulty.

[MountainManJim]

Hey all, I was hoping to get some definitive tasks where you prefer the SE or PE. If you have one or the other in your pocket surely you can use to the task on hand. But, imagine you have a Dyad in your hand. How do you chose between the two blades?

Jim

[spydutch]

Hey all, I was hoping to get some definitive tasks where you prefer the SE or PE. If you have one or the other in your pocket surely you can use to the task on hand. But, imagine you have a Dyad in your hand. How do you chose between the two blades?

Jim

Opening letters, PE
Cutting out articles, PE
Scraping, PE
Opening packages, SE
Cutting up boxes, SE
Cutting rope, SE
Preparing food, SE
Cutting meat/Veggies, SE
Cutting tie rips at work, SE


Except maybe for scraping the 3 PE I could just as easy manage with SE. :p

I have to because I don't own any PE Spydies. Just full SE

[Mako109]

Filleting trout and salmon - FFG in PE
Skinning salmon - FFG in PE
Butterflying shrimp - FFG in PE

Full flat ground blade in PE produces smooth presentable cuts of fish. Especially important for preparing sashimi and poki where rough, jagged cuts are a no-no. Main thing is to use the longest blade possible and keep the edge razor sharp.

[clovisc]

serrated... best for quickly processing sole on the docks (saw off head / through spine, rip off, along with guts).

spyderco's H1 serrations are the absolute best out there!!!!!!!

[clovisc]

Filleting trout and salmon - FFG in PE
Skinning salmon - FFG in PE
Butterflying shrimp - FFG in PE

Full flat ground blade in PE produces smooth presentable cuts of fish. Especially important for preparing sashimi and poki where rough, jagged cuts are a no-no. Main thing is to use the longest blade possible and keep the edge razor sharp.

nice, man... this is my kinda thinking! my rock salt has been working well for rapid salmon processing... but how about a FFG fixed blade big enough to handle the chinook and calico salmon here... :D

[gordonk]

Opening packages/envelopes/boxes/packages - PE
Knocking down cardboard boxes - SE/hawkbill in SE.
Rope/strapping - SE
String - PE
Scraping - PE
Stripping wire - PE if strippers aren't on me:-)
Gardening - pointy & SE for digging out/cutting weeds - PE for trimming
Clampaks - point & PE usually/SE if it's an "ugly one" :D
Cutting tape (duct tape/electrical,etc) - depends on the job at hand - sometimes PE, but mostly SE
Food Prep - PE for most things/SE for cutting buns, bread

For most of my daily needs, I find that a PE blade in the 3" range of some sort is adequate. I do, however, always keep a larger folder in SE in my daypack.

[mark greenman]

I like to carry a FRN SE model and a higher end PE model as my EDC combo. For the last week, its been my D4W SE and CF Caly 3.


I use the SE for
-rope
-boxes
-tape
-old cloth furniture
-plastic bags/ plastic film (like on a pound of chicken)
-bread
-Beef jerkey
-things that are wet
-things that need to be cut quickly without paying much attention


The PE gets used for-
-wood (PE #1 advantage over SE IMO)
-plastic clampacks
-plastic bottles
-envelopes
-loose threads
-paper
-meat
-drilling through plastic
-cutting things to shape (cardboard, trimming edges of IKEA furniture, ect)

In general, assuming a high level of sharpness, I like FFG>SE> Hollow and Saber Flat PE for my cutting needs. Once the knives cant cut a piece of paper in half, I'm reaching for the SE. :spyder:

[Mako109]

nice, man... this is my kinda thinking! my rock salt has been working well for rapid salmon processing... but how about a FFG fixed blade big enough to handle the chinook and calico salmon here... :D

Yes, in Alaska, forget about folders...they're all too small. Super sized FFG fixed blade for Alaskan sized salmon!

That Rock Salt is awesome lookin. Haven't had the pleasure to shakehands with one...yet.

[JD Spydo]

Yes, in Alaska, forget about folders...they're all too small. Super sized FFG fixed blade for Alaskan sized salmon!

That Rock Salt is awesome lookin. Haven't had the pleasure to shakehands with one...yet.

Now "Mako" I beg to differ with you on your statement about "Forget Folders In Alaska" Because some of Spyderco's full sized folders like the Military, Captain, Chinook, Manix and big Dyad have a lot of use in that environment. Now I will sort of agree with you in principle because I do think you're sort of on the right track to a degree. I will go on record saying that small bladed folders in a harsh environment like Alaska, Canada and Australia have little practical use IMO.

Hey Mark Greenman that's a really great chart you've got on the duties of the 2 different edge types. I will differ with you on a couple of items>> I actually use a couple of my serrated Spyders for serious meat cutting along with the plain edges. Also you could say that cutting rugged or fibrous materials do better when using Spyderco's Spyder-Edged blades. Leather comes to mind immediately when referring to rugged materials along with some very thick industrial plastics.

Great Thread GUYS!! :)

[MountainManJim]

OK, I have updated the original post to include the comments I receive yesterday. I have consolidated the cutting tasks into general modes of cutting. I’m trying to get to the overarching ways that the SE and PE edges work best.

Unfortunately, I couldn’t include all of the comments. Several of the suggested cutting tasks were list for both SE and PE. I will admit that you can use either edge type for any task on hand. But I’m trying to create a list of where one edge type excels of the other, hence we can’t have a task listed for both SE and PE. I decided where to place the task using our understanding of how the SE or PE work.

Hope you like it :o

Jim

[theCuttingEdge]

MountainMan,

I am not going to quote a book thinking that I am only one that has read it, because I know that many people on this forum have read The Cutting Edge Book of Sharpening. But, in that book the author states that the only reason to have a SE is at restaurants where people are cutting 1/2 steak and 1/2 plate. In this case the points on the SE keep the cutting edge from dulling. In the kitchen you can use serrations to cut bread not because it cuts better, but because the serrations start the cut the way you start off with a marking cut with a saw. These are the only reasons to use a SE according to that book. I tend to agree.

I think that if you think that a SE is better at cutting than a PE I would disagree. A SE is better at tearing and not dulling when cutting things like plates. If you think that a SE cuts better than I would say that you don't have a correctly profiled and sharpened PE. That book is a bit old and does have some aspects that are dated, but as MountainMan points out there is not a lot of material written about this subject. This book does cover the topic. Even if you can sharpen well it is a good read, and only 20 bucks on Amazon.

I am not knocking the SE guys and gals. I think to each his or her own. I think that SE's have their place and that is tearing and ripping. If you want to cut, slice, or if it should be clean you need a PE. I would challenge anyone to beat a properly profiled PE with a SE. I think the SE would fail. I am going to test it though. My next :spyder: will be a SE and I will put it and a profiled PE through informal tests for myself at least.

Keep using your SE if you like it because in the end that is what is important, not what a nobody (me) on a forum thinks. You can't go wrong with any :spyder: and even though I love a PE I would never turn down a :spyder: even one with a SE.

[wescobts]

Hey MountainMan,

I could not agree with you more, I was trying to cut some rags with my SE for a project and was having quite a time at it, so I brought out my PE. When at work and have the cut fiber re-enforced hose, my SE is da' man. I open all mail with PE, and boxes. I cut all my food with PE, to include the soft tomatoes, what I end up is having a crazy sharp blade or lancing the tomato on the edge of it and then finishing the slice. I haven't had the pleasure of working in the garden as of late, but my time is soon. I would have to say I use my PE more, but never leave the house without my SE for the simple fact that I do not want to get caught without it.

[mark greenman]

MountainMan,

I am not going to quote a book thinking that I am only one that has read it, because I know that many people on this forum have read The Cutting Edge Book of Sharpening. But, in that book the author states that the only reason to have a SE is at restaurants where people are cutting 1/2 steak and 1/2 plate. In this case the points on the SE keep the cutting edge from dulling. In the kitchen you can use serrations to cut bread not because it cuts better, but because the serrations start the cut the way you start off with a marking cut with a saw. These are the only reasons to use a SE according to that book. I tend to agree.

I think that if you think that a SE is better at cutting than a PE I would disagree. A SE is better at tearing and not dulling when cutting things like plates. If you think that a SE cuts better than I would say that you don't have a correctly profiled and sharpened PE. That book is a bit old and does have some aspects that are dated, but as MountainMan points out there is not a lot of material written about this subject. This book does cover the topic. Even if you can sharpen well it is a good read, and only 20 bucks on Amazon.

I am not knocking the SE guys and gals. I think to each his or her own. I think that SE's have their place and that is tearing and ripping. If you want to cut, slice, or if it should be clean you need a PE. I would challenge anyone to beat a properly profiled PE with a SE. I think the SE would fail. I am going to test it though. My next :spyder: will be a SE and I will put it and a profiled PE through informal tests for myself at least.

Keep using your SE if you like it because in the end that is what is important, not what a nobody (me) on a forum thinks. You can't go wrong with any :spyder: and even though I love a PE I would never turn down a :spyder: even one with a SE.

Well, If you plan on buying a SE knife, I strongly suggest the Endura Wave SE, as it has a particularly effective SE pattern.

I tend to agree that there are few things that will beat a hair whittling PE blade; since most users (myself included) have difficulty in reaching and maintaining this level of sharpness, I find the SE quite nice. Each serration is like a micro-hawkbill, making SE excel at pulling cuts i my experience, and a SE is much more "Murphy resistant" than a PE due to the edge protection of the spikes and scallops.

[MountainManJim]

Hey all, I believe that this forum is evidence that PE and SE both have their uses. We have so many SE enthusiasts that there must be applications where the SE excels. Finding those tasks was the goal of my post. I think we pulled together a good list so far.

“The Cutting Edge …” is a great book, though primarily because there is so little written on the subject. I gleaned several great tips from the authors, but their bias towards the PE is troubling. I think stems for the fact that they did have a good way to sharpen a SE. Clearly the SE would not be useful with the Sharp Maker. Also, their experience and focus was on meat packing plant applications. An application where the PE seems to be preferred.

I agree with TheCuttingEdge that cutting food on a plate is shining example of a situation where SE is preferred over the PE.

Mark, Wescobts, I too see the PE as the best all around edge, but I hope to avoid starting the PE/SE argument. A sharp PE can do cut anything a SE can, but it will dull quicker and it may take more care to get it to cut. I always have a PE with me, but I avoid having just a SE with me. The SE seems to be more of a special purpose edge. Very effective for cutting tasks where it excels, but rather ill suited for many of the push cutting tasks that one encounters.

All said, one always benefits from having more TOOLS :D So, always carry a Dyad :spyder:

Jim

[scout]

I disagree about the uselessness of serrations. My collection is 80% PE, but my active time in the Navy taught me that certain types of rope cut safer with SE. A plain edge will have the tendency to slide off of Polypropylene rope without biting. Most of my accidents involving knives have come from polypro. having to be forced too much.
Serrations often get stuck in nylon rope. (big stuff) I find that PE works better/safer for nylon rope and cotton stuffer braid line. Manila rope can go either way, It just likes a aggressive edge. I always carried one of each because being around rope and line can be dangerous during certain operations.