Am I the only one who doesn't like the Delica handle?

[J.B]

/unlist me, I love the Delicas. Especially their ergos are very versatile and the best I can imagine. There are several other models with choil. So I see no need for making them all the same like I see no need for putting the same lock in every model. Variety is an important point in the Spyderco model line-up.

The saber grind gives a good balance between slicing abilities and stability. One has to keep in mind, the blade is only 2.5 mm thick. I´m not a fan of the flat-grind-a-ritis. On the other hand, one only can grind a thin saber grind blade full flat, not the other way round.

Only looking for slicing is like only looking for edge holding. Both may be ok for special needs, but for general purposes blade strength must not been left out. I don´t want to find me in the middle of nowhere with a broken blade just to have one that slices or holds the edge a few percent better than a strong blade that won´t break.

JB

[spydutch]

I can live with the new grind of the D4(I miss the point too though). The ergo's are way behind for my hand compared to the 3rd generation. The front cut out is just too small.

I find the ergo's of the E4 even worse, blade heavy indeed when I hold the knife in a way that's most comfortable and the point of the first cut out irritating my middle finger when I choke up to the blade.

The best ergo's of the Endura are IMO on the first generation models.

I guess that's why I always come back to my Delica3/SE :)

[philthygeezer]

I like the D4 handle better than previous ones.

I like the Caly3 best of all though. Please do a Caly3 in foliage green!

[vivi]

Only looking for slicing is like only looking for edge holding. Both may be ok for special needs, but for general purposes blade strength must not been left out. I don´t want to find me in the middle of nowhere with a broken blade just to have one that slices or holds the edge a few percent better than a strong blade that won´t break.

JB

Not really. "Slicing" (More specifically push cutting as well) is all I do with my knives. I don't pry with them, so that extra steel is not only useless for my application of the knife, but it makes the performance of the knife significantly worse for the uses I have for it.

I have never broken a knife blade by just using it. This includes not only full flat grinds, but heavily reprofiled full flat ground knives. I have video evidence of my reground UK Pen knife taking full arm swing chops and batoning without even losing it's edge, much less breaking. When do you ever need to chop and baton with a folder? I never have need to, though I've done it here and there for convenience during certain outdoors tasks and to see how well the knife holds up to it.

Point is, if my reprofiled full flat ground UKPK in a steel not promoted for it's toughness can withstand more than I'm ever likely to do with a folder, what point does a saber grind have for me?

None.

Which leads me to another question, directed at anyone. Is there anything you'd use a saber ground Delica for that you would not use a flat ground Delica for? Please tell me so I can go test said tasks with a saber ground and flat ground folder and compare the results.

[Fred Sanford]

...Which leads me to another question, directed at anyone. Is there anything you'd use a saber ground Delica for that you would not use a flat ground Delica for? Please tell me so I can go test said tasks with a saber ground and flat ground folder and compare the results.

I agree bro. For me there is nothing I would use a flat saber ground D4 for other than prying (which is not a use for a knife) that I would NOT use a full flat ground D4 for. But since that's not what knives are for....it's not really a point.

I however am sorta tired of the "let's full flat grind everything" attitude that lots of people have as of late. A nice high hollow grind works very well, as do hollow saber grinds like what is on the Centofante III and 4.

I think knives got waaaaay too thick as a result of people wanting something that could handle everything in their survival / tactical realm. For cutting...heck look at the old slippies. They are usually thin full flat ground blades and work wonders. For hacking/chopping/prying......I say go get a screwdriver, an ax, or a Strider.

[J.B]

Not really. "Slicing" (More specifically push cutting as well) is all I do with my knives. I don't pry with them, so that extra steel is not only useless for my application of the knife, but it makes the performance of the knife significantly worse for the uses I have for it.

I have never broken a knife blade by just using it. This includes not only full flat grinds, but heavily reprofiled full flat ground knives. I have video evidence of my reground UK Pen knife taking full arm swing chops and batoning without even losing it's edge, much less breaking. When do you ever need to chop and baton with a folder? I never have need to, though I've done it here and there for convenience during certain outdoors tasks and to see how well the knife holds up to it.

Point is, if my reprofiled full flat ground UKPK in a steel not promoted for it's toughness can withstand more than I'm ever likely to do with a folder, what point does a saber grind have for me?

None.

Which leads me to another question, directed at anyone. Is there anything you'd use a saber ground Delica for that you would not use a flat ground Delica for? Please tell me so I can go test said tasks with a saber ground and flat ground folder and compare the results.

I never have broken a razor blade, so lets make all blades thin as razors. This can not be it or can it?

There is no doubt in my mind that situations exist which can lead to a broken thin blade, especially if it is from stainless steel, not from carbon steel or tool steel like S-7 (or SR-77) which should be tougher. Just think of SD. Also a big hole in the thin blade doesn´t really increase the toughness or strength. Why have knives like the Yojimbo, the Military or the Paramilitary 4 mm thick blades? They cut like **** while staying strong. If it would be only for best cutting they could be 2 mm thick but they are not.

I like a little thicker blades, saber grinds and smaller holes (like the Endura 3 had for example). The small functionless holes in my signature are based on legal reasons. I really can not say, that my regular spydies have to bad cutting abilities. In fact I´m very pleased with them. This is why I see no need for me to weaken them. If others like to have their saber grind blades customized, this is absolutely ok with me.

JB

[Ritt]

I think the Endura and Delica are two of the best EDC folders on the market, except for two things:

1. The ergonomics
2. The saber grind

I'm curious. If you don't like the ergonomics or the grind, what do you like so much about these knives that you consider them two of the best EDC folders on the market? I mean if you don't care for the blade or the handle, what's left?

[vivi]

I'm curious. If you don't like the ergonomics or the grind, what do you like so much about these knives that you consider them two of the best EDC folders on the market? I mean if you don't care for the blade or the handle, what's left?

I mentioned individual aspects of the blade and handle. I still like the handle texture, screw construction, lockback, VG10 and ZDP189 steel choices, blade shape, over sized opening hole, 4 way clip, the clip itself, how light they are, how thin they are, the wave option, the spine jimping, the skeletonized liners.....need I go on? :D

I never have broken a razor blade, so lets make all blades thin as razors. This can not be it or can it?

There is no doubt in my mind that situations exist which can lead to a broken thin blade, especially if it is from stainless steel, not from carbon steel or tool steel like S-7 (or SR-77) which should be tougher. Just think of SD. Also a big hole in the thin blade doesn´t really increase the toughness or strength. Why have knives like the Yojimbo, the Military or the Paramilitary 4 mm thick blades? They cut like **** while staying strong. If it would be only for best cutting they could be 2 mm thick but they are not.

I like a little thicker blades, saber grinds and smaller holes (like the Endura 3 had for example). The small functionless holes in my signature are based on legal reasons. I really can not say, that my regular spydies have to bad cutting abilities. In fact I´m very pleased with them. This is why I see no need for me to weaken them. If others like to have their saber grind blades customized, this is absolutely ok with me.

JB

The razor blade example is irrelevant, unless you EDC a razor blade and use it like you would a Delica. I cited my thin UKPK because that is what I do with it. EDC it and use it for everything I would ever use a knife that size for.

I don't use my knives for stabbing people so SD is a moot point for my particular uses. If that's your thing though, a thicker tip and so forth is understandable from a durability viewpoint, though a thinner blade would penetrate better in this case too. One curious thing though is you argue in favor of saber grinds for durability and cite SD as a case where this might come into play. Yet, look at what grinds spyderco's SD folders have? Chinook 3, Lil Temp, Pikal, Yojimbo.....these are all full flat. Not that they haven't put out saber ground MBC knives, but that so many of them are full flat should say something. Also, have you seen the tip on the Pikal? It makes the tip on the Military look like a Strider.

You say the thinner blades are weaker. But there is a balance between a razor blade (I actually do sharpen most my knives like straight razors, e.g. flat to the stone) and an overly obtuse saber grind. I've been doing casual knife tests for the past few years, and what I've observed int he case of small 3 inch folders is that 99% of factory edges ship unoptimized for the best performance / strength combination.

My method is simple. I pick out the roughest tasks my EDC folders will be subjected to. Whittling seasoned hardwood, slicing thick cardboard and plastic bottles, cutting thick plastic zip ties and pallet straps etc. Nothing overly rough, but if the edge is too thin it will chip doing these things. I progressively thin out the edge until it starts to chip doing any one of these tasks. Once it does that, I sharpen it again to remove most the damage and apply a microbevel. After doing this, the edge remains completely stable, and offers me the optimum cutting performance for my particular needs.

Try it sometime on a folder you don't mind making ugly. If SD is the hardest thing you could imagine doing with your knife, then take a stock Cara Cara for example and stab a chicken or something and try to hit bone. See how the edge holds up, and go from there. So on for everyone and their knife uses.

Not doing this is like buying a car and leaving the seat adjusted as it came from factory, rather than adjusting the height and horizontal positioning of the seat to your body shape and size. Knives ship from factory with edges a little thicker than needed, because it's easier to remove steel for a thinner edge than to add it for a thicker edge, and partially to compensate for the ignorance of certain customers. If all you use your Spyderco for is similar to what I do, such as opening packages, breaking down cardboard, cutting food here and there, cutting rope and thread, cleaning fingernails etc, then you're not getting the performance out of your knife that you could if you reprofiled it. If you're worried you may one day run in to something that you'd be weary using a thin edge for, just EDC two knives. Centofante 3 reprofiled flat to the stone for daily cutting, Endura Wave IWB with factory edge for SD or using on rough materials that you think may chip the Centofante. Just an idea.

Regardless, there isn't anything I've seen an Endura 4 stock do that my reprofiled ZDP189 Endura can't do. This includes batoning through frozen wood and chopping. If you don't regularly baton and chop, I think you'd be pretty safe with the reprofiled edge. But, if you enjoy using edges designed for things that you don't do with a knife, so that the cutting you do requires more force than it should, then have fun. Personally I like the feel of a finely tuned, well honed edge, and the lack of effort it takes to separate matter with it. A cut connoisseur if you will. :)

One more thing, I keep an open invitation to anyone who has not tried a reprofiled edge to email me their shipping info and try one from my collection for a week or two. If anyone would like to take me up on that, just send an email my way. US residents only though, international shipping is too expensive.

[SimpleIsGood229]

Vivi, it sounds like your ZDP E4 should make a trip to Gentry, Arkansas, for a Tom Krein FFG treatment. My ZDP E4 went there, and let me tell you, it's my Ferrari folder. Your ZDP E4's currant reprofiled-saber grind will seem an inch thick, after the knife is back in your hands with a FFG.

Did you actually FFG your ZDP Endura? If so, could you post a pic.? Heck, could you post one, anyway? :D

[jzmtl]

I like the handle on them, but not the grind. It's good if you are happy with sharpening at 40° but reprofile is a major pain in the butt. Can't send it out for regrind because budget is tight, and cross border shipping back and forth is prohibitively expensive.

[vivi]

Vivi, it sounds like your ZDP E4 should make a trip to Gentry, Arkansas, for a Tom Krein FFG treatment. My ZDP E4 went there, and let me tell you, it's my Ferrari folder. Your ZDP E4's currant reprofiled-saber grind will seem an inch thick, after the knife is back in your hands with a FFG.

Did you actually FFG your ZDP Endura? If so, could you post a pic.? Heck, could you post one, anyway? :D

I was just at my parents house too. My USB port on this laptop isn't working and I'm in the middle of a 2.5 month headache of trying to get replacement parts for my desktop computer. The store sent me a bad motherboard, then sent me the wrong motherboard (Full size mobos don't like mini atx cases, hahah). I can upload a photo eventually.

What I did to my ZDP Endura is lay it flat to the saber grind on a DMT XX Course and grind it so there was no bevel left at the edge. Scandi style. This edge got small rolls in it doing rough carving on knotty hardwood, so I applied a microbevel and it's been stable since. It's not as good as a FFG with a thin edge but it works a lot better than it did. I don't have current pictures but here's some when it was still in progress. http://metalx.org/raum/Articles/endura.html

Here's some other regrinds I've done. I know they're ugly as ****, but they cut really well, are sharper than a razor (I did side by side comparisons) and I would of dropped at least 300$ towards Mr. Krein by now if I had him do them all. Plus I enjoy the process. Usually. :)

http://metalx.org/raum/gallery.html

There you can see the UKPK I mentioned. It's a very extreme reprofiling job. In that photo I hadn't taken the new back bevel all the way to the edge, but it's even thinner at the edge now since putting more work into it. That's the part I enjoy, using the knife as I work on it and feel it getting progressively better and better.

For the record, it makes me cringe to use most factory edges. When I got my ZDP Endura I wouldn't carry it because of the edge, which is surprising because Spyderco is usually one of the best companies when it comes to edge geometry. Normally Spydercos factory edges are at least what I'd consider usable. For example my BG42 Military could be thinner, but so far I've kept the factory bevel because it's not bad at all. The Pikal I mentioned is a recent acquisition and it's another knife with wonderful geometry from factory. To me good edge geometry is one of the reasons I prefer Spyderco to other knives, though it's primarily for materials, ergonomics and the hole. I would think with the Delica and Endura being some of the worst cutters they produce as far as pure "slicing" (I really don't like that term because I do a lot of push cutting too, so it sounds ignorant to me to call a knife a good slicer) goes, that it gives those "casual" buyers a worse impression of Spydercos cutting ability compared to the Caly or Military's geometry for instance.

That's what happened to me at least. I bought the Delica and traded it off partially because of the grind, but mainly because of the handle. If it weren't for the people on bladeforums persistently recommending Spyderco in the threads there I would of probably just gone back to my SAKs and forgotten about clips and holes and such.

[Bolster]

A Delica never feels right in my hands, either. No place for my index finger, which tends to slide backward and crunch into the other fingers.

[markg]

If you put a darn finger choil on the Delica, I will never buy another.

You already have a dozen knives with it... Leave the Delica alone!!! :D

Without the choil, it is a suitable small SD knife..

[vivi]

Without the choil, it is a suitable small SD knife..

Knives with choils aren't?

[Doc Pyres]

The foliage green D4 is one of the best knives I own. I love the handle. Actually, I was just thinking the other day about how amazingly comfortable the handle is for me. I thought it might be too small for me when I was first thinking of getting a D4, but in fact it's super comfortable. (For reference, I wear L~XL size in most gloves). I like my UKPK too, but I don't mind not having a choil on the D4 at all. The flat grind is excellent.

As for a saber grind, the only saber grind D4 I've handled is the pink one I gave to my wife. The handle felt great to me. I haven't used it for any cutting, but she likes it fine for the light duty stuff she does. And she REALLY likes the ergos. She uses the word 'perfect' to describe the knife every time I ask her how it's doing.

I'm just glad Spyderco makes so many different great knives to please just about anybody.

Cheers :D :) :D

[markg]

Knives with choils aren't?

It depends... Something like a Native is not...

[Left Hand Path]

It depends... Something like a Native is not...

Can you explain why?
Just curious...

[StuntZombie]

I disliked the new Delicas so much, that I spent a few months scouring the web for a Delica 3. I can't tell you how much more I like the older model compared to the new. I was excited about the ability to disassemble the knife at first, but I've grown to love the simplicity of the riveted one piece FRN handle.

[markg]

Can you explain why?
Just curious...

One, it puts the finger very close to the cutting edge, and in most cases there is not enough "guard" to keep the finger in place.

Two, I like the "Modified Filipino Grip" and in that case, the thumb is forward on the spine, forward of the index finger below. On the Native, they end up pretty much in the same place (top and bottom) and this throws off the geometry for me.

For basic cutting chores, it does give you a lot of control over the blade, but I don't like my finger there for SD usages.

[THG]

On the Native, they end up pretty much in the same place (top and bottom) and this throws off the geometry for me.

That's why I don't like choils in general. I remember the first time I saw a Caly at a store and asked to hold it. I had "legendary ergos" etched in the back of my mind because of all the credit given to it. Then I held it and I was confused, because with the choil, it wasn't all that comfortable to hold...