Serrated VS Plain / Civilian VS Milli

[JasonG]

Hi guys!
been getting alot of mixed emotoins regarding the heading:
Starting with serrated VS plain, which is better for self defence? been told the serrated catches on clothing, (i've experienced this slightly, but not sure if its actually a problem or not), and some say it will cut through denim better then a plain edge.... So whats the best option? (sharpening wont be an issue as its only used for self defence)

2ndly:
What do you think is a better defence knife, and why? beteween a Civilain SE and Milli PE.

I seemd to get different opions about these things.... but so far the "hard core" knife fighter doods reccon a bigger plane edges are the way to go. And should the pointy blade on the milli be something to consider for stabbing?

We live in South Africa... that should say enough about my question.

[JD Spydo]

Well first of all we need to understand that the Civilian was designed primarily for alternative self defense for law enforcement. In essence it was solely designed for that in mind. Albeit you could sure put up a valiant defense with a Military model unless your adversary had a gun or other mean hardware. I don't think anyone in the right mind would recommend any knife as your primary hardware for SD in an extreme situation.

But for use for everyday citizens I high encourage having a blade that can be used for ELU and everyday cutting chores as well as having SD capabilities and thus the Military would be excellent. With that scenerio the Military would even be your obvious choice.

As much as I love Hawkbills and Reverse S blades like the Civilian and Matriarch you need to know what you are dealing with and you must be comfortable and confident with your tool. I've had several guys and gals tell me that they didn't like the Civi becasue it was just too big. Whereas I have found most average sized people with a medium to large hand prefer the Matriarch. The reverse S and/or hawkbill blades are great but they are a completely different ball game in many aspects and they are a blade you need to be trained and educated on more than a conventional blade IMO.

I would say to have the best of both worlds in a normal everyday situation the Military would be an excellent pick. If you were to use a Civilain or any other specialized SD knife again I would highly encourage you to seek expert education and training. There are some great training videos and books out there by guys like Michael Janich and others if that's your desire.

Now for preferences of either serrated or plain edged SD tools>> well that just depends on a lot of factors. I know that Michael Janich doesn't like serrated blades for SD. But I personally tend to respectfully disagree with Mr. Janich on that point because I do feel that under some situations serrated blades could really do some major damage and render your attacker completely helpless. It depends on many factors and it depends a lot of which serration pattern your blade has IMO.

[JaM]

I'm all for a "user" (i.e. a knife you can, and maybe should, use daily) to be used as a sd-backup.
Why ? Familiarity with the knife, and it's not too "strange" you have one on you, should you ever need to explain one.
Therefore I'd look to the Endura-series (also available in trainers !), in whatever steel configuration you like.
Maybe the CE digi-green is a nice option here...? (just wished that colour was available in pe though)

Cheers,

JaM

(who doent want to use his lil'temp as a "backup":rolleyes :)

[J.B]

JD Spydo, very well said! Except IIRC Michael Janich once wrote, he likes to start cuts with serrations and pull through with the plain part of the blade, what would make CE blades his favorits. I´m not sure about that though. Nevertheless I just bought his awesome Blackhawk Kalista in PE. :cool:

Between a Civilian and a Mili I would go for the Mili PE or maybe CE. A knife with such extraordinary utility capabilities surely is also very good for emergency situations. Plus I strongly believe what JaM said. It is very important to be familiar with your knife.

JB

[mark greenman]

JD Spydo, very well said! Except IIRC Michael Janich once wrote, he likes to start cuts with serrations and pull through with the plain part of the blade, what would make CE blades his favorits.

JB

I just took a class with him (mind-blowing!) and he was sporting a blue Yojimbo and 2 CE D4's FYI. The CE performed most impressively against the vicious "pork man" aggressor :D Went clean through 8 layers of drop cloth, 25 layers cling wrap, ~2" pork and twine with a moderate slash.
-My SE D4W performed nicely as well, but when the cloth was held loosely it did not perform as well, although the edge was not as sharp as it could be.

More important than the knife, I would strongly urge you get some training or a DVD to watch. Before I took the class, I, like most, was planning to "stab the guy while avoiding being stabbed," which would probably have gotten me killed in an actual confrontation. Its really important that you know what your doing.

I recommend getting MJ's "marital blade concepts" DVD, his "counter blade concepts" DVD if you can afford it, and the CE black blade Millie, since it wont reflect and is useful in EDC situations as well as SD.

Good luck,
Mark

[brj]

went through this one myself and I have chosen the millie, because:
- i like PE over SE
- I've felt the Civilian had a far too specialized shape and I had to carry another knife for edc purposes

I'd stay away from the black blade millie, it won't look good when/if you would be trying to justify yourself.
Remember this ???

[RazorSharp86]

I've got both knives, both are extremely big, and probably very effective for SD. I do prefer the PE Millie for EDC, so i have a CE edge one, which i always keep sharp and unused, for SD purposes. Keep in mind, the civillian is also good for SD because the sight is "horrifying" for some people, especially people with wide imagination... :p

[JasonG]

I carry both knifes on me, so its not a matter of picking somthing that can also be a multi purpose use, hence favouring the milli, but like i said, some experts reccon milli is the best, and some 'also my opinion' was civi was best due to its build purpose.... but then what is the paper inside the box saying it isnt very capable of literally being lethal? "help out in legal situations?" because we all know it would be able to be lethal....

sorry this is so abrupt and cruel, but im actaully a firarm dealer in SA, I carry a glock 27 for 1st back up.... if they get the gun off me, and trie our family up, and rape the family and kill us, I want to have the best possible weapon hidden down my pants to take on guys with guns if i know they going to kill me.... so therefore, what is the most lethal of the two? (This is a common thing in SA.... at least one family attack/killing a week im sure in one province/state)

Now if im about to take on someone with a gun (I know it sounds stupid, but I going to die fighting if possible), what would you use? I preach self defence daily, and im not a tactical 'novice' in any way... I would just like to here from the proffesionals of your game whats the best thing.... Just as i would be able to give proffesional advice on firearms and defence situations. please excuse my arrogance....

[J.B]

I just took a class with him (mind-blowing!) and he was sporting a blue Yojimbo and 2 CE D4's FYI. The CE performed most impressively against the vicious "pork man" aggressor :D Went clean through 8 layers of drop cloth, 25 layers cling wrap, ~2" pork and twine with a moderate slash.
-My SE D4W performed nicely as well, but when the cloth was held loosely it did not perform as well, although the edge was not as sharp as it could be.

More important than the knife, I would strongly urge you get some training or a DVD to watch. Before I took the class, I, like most, was planning to "stab the guy while avoiding being stabbed," which would probably have gotten me killed in an actual confrontation. Its really important that you know what your doing.

I recommend getting MJ's "marital blade concepts" DVD, his "counter blade concepts" DVD if you can afford it, and the CE black blade Millie, since it wont reflect and is useful in EDC situations as well as SD.

Good luck,
Mark

Thanks for your recommendation, Mark, sounds very impressive!
Although I see my Ronin and Kalista not as SD knives but as kind of art objects, I´m pretty curious on which concepts they are based upon. Besides your posting was a wake-up call for me. I surley would not know what exactly to do in a serious situation. :eek:

Best wishes
JB

[JD Spydo]

Few people here in Spyderville are as big of a fan of the Captain as I am. The Captain is a difficult concept to understand. You truly have to own it and use it to see the objective that Mr. Breeden was working toward when he designed it.

To me the Captain is like a convex straight razor in the self defense sector. It is also a butcher's dream come true when it comes to cutting up meat and most wild game. It's slicing capability is just awesome. I took some 3 & 1/2 thick pork chops a friend gave me and I cut them in half so I could cook them easier. It was truly like taking candy from a baby it was so easy. I had never cut meat with anything like it.

Truly I would hate to look at the results of using one in a self defense situation ( GOD forbid) because it would truly be something out of a Stephen King horror movie. But if I had some thug trying to kill me I can't think of many other knives I would rather have. It truly would gave you more than a fighting chance. And I hope I never need it for that.

I know this thread is about the Mili & Civi but the Captain needs to be mentioned in the same context. The really important thing is that all 3 of them are superb.

[mark greenman]

Thanks for your recommendation, Mark, sounds very impressive!
Although I see my Ronin and Kalista not as SD knives but as kind of art objects, I´m pretty curious on which concepts they are based upon. Besides your posting was a wake-up call for me. I surley would not know what exactly to do in a serious situation. :eek:

Best wishes
JB

Glad I could be of help :)

As for the Ronin, it's designed by MJ himself around his MBC concept, so I'd expect it to excel in the whole slicing of muscles and tendons, which are the primary targets that he recommends for instant stopping power (as opposed to eventual death caused by stabbing.) I was definitely convinced, so I bought a Yojimbo, the folding version of the Ronin, as my EDC.

Take care,
Mark

[JasonG]

THank you SD spyder

Right... so I want a captain now.... but in the mean time, can you please make a suggestion which of the other two you would carry? Any one else got some comments regarding this matter? any help would be appreciated....

[RIOT]

when trying to answer this question what came to me first was : which knife would i rather be cut with? if i had a choice.

my answer is : i would hate to be sliced by a serrated civilian and much rather be sliced by a plain edge military.

so for self defense strictly and not using it for any other tasks, basicly not using it at all, i would go for the serrated civilian, if you plan on using it for anything else id go for the military.

[Agent Starling]

THank you SD spyder

LOL...never heard that one before... :rolleyes:

Right... so I want a captain now.... but in the mean time, can you please make a suggestion which of the other two you would carry? Any one else got some comments regarding this matter? any help would be appreciated....

If you want some actual performance data on a wide variety of knives check out Doc Snubnose's meat test threads.

Agent Starling

[J.B]

Glad I could be of help :)

As for the Ronin, it's designed by MJ himself around his MBC concept, so I'd expect it to excel in the whole slicing of muscles and tendons, which are the primary targets that he recommends for instant stopping power (as opposed to eventual death caused by stabbing.) I was definitely convinced, so I bought a Yojimbo, the folding version of the Ronin, as my EDC.

Take care,
Mark

Thanks a lot, Mark! :)

I really like the noble idea of a concept which has the intention not to take lives to protect others. I´m sure this is the best way for both parties. I´ve had the Yojimbo high on my wish list, but then they changed our law and now it´s verboten to carry one hand knives.

After having read your posting last night I´ve found 12 "MBC Instructional Column" threads from Micheal Janich in the forums archive, which is very nice stuff indeed. Also I´ve located where from I can buy his DVDs in Germany and I have visited his website http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com, which I already had in my bookmarks but haven´t looked for the books and videos before. I had expected to find 2 DVDs there, but he has several more, quite interesting stuff and again impressive.

By the way, I just remembered what my former Teakwondo Grandmaster once said to me in the mid 80s: No one knows how good your chances are if it comes to a fight, but one thing is for sure, with each day you exercise they will grow. :D

Best wishes
JB

[JD Spydo]

THank you SD spyder

Right... so I want a captain now.... but in the mean time, can you please make a suggestion which of the other two you would carry? Any one else got some comments regarding this matter? any help would be appreciated....

I already have. Check out Post #2 on this thread. I went into detail explaining the practical uses for both models. I hope that helps.