New US law to ban locking folders !!!

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The General
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#41

Post by The General »

peacefuljeffrey wrote:I disagree: you're not on "solid ground" there at all.

What happens when the government there simply decides that no longer are you allowed to carry some arbitrarily exempted "don't-have-to-have-a-reason-for-this-kind" of knife?

Seriously. They already have the authority to declare that you can't have a lockback knife without a "reason" -- and I'm confident that "because I might need or wish to cut something with the security that my knife won't fold onto my fingers" doesn't cut it with them as a reason. Why is it so far-fetched to think that they may one day just say that you can't have a knife period without a "reason?

The only thing stopping your government from decreeing that, it is clear, is your government. They could do it any time they want to.
You missed my point completely. What I was saying was in response to the question about the current state of things with regards to locking and non locking knives. NOT about what might happen to the UK. Currently the UKPK DOES meet the requirements, that was my point. Solid ground AT THE MOMENT.

Yes, things can and do change, usually for the worse, I think you guys need to accept this as well.

We inna UK know things are going to get worse for owners of sharp and shiny things. They are talking about banning Samurai swords right now... God help us!
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#42

Post by peacefuljeffrey »

The only thing I can say is this:

Get your paperwork started NOW to apply for U.S. citizenship. Leave that hopelessly troubled, mentally addled place behind. Keep cherished memories of how cool it was long ago, and force yourself to forget about what kind of insane asylum it is now.

If you believe in the right to own knives and guns, we could use your support over here, where those things still exist to be protected. You'd be welcome.

-PJ
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#43

Post by Blackhair »

Before I go on my soapbox, let me say that I can't guarantee that what I'm saying is true, this is just a trick that newspapers and government and movie studios generally use that I felt niggling at my Spydey Sense:

Did anybody else notice the (possible) trick with the numbers of violent crime in that knife article? The exact content of the article went thusly:
"the FBI says knife-related crimes have edged up, to 15.5% in 2004 from 15% in 2000. In that time, violent crime in general dropped 4.1%"

Now, people have a trick that they pull, where if they receive a 10% increase in funding in 2003, and they receive an 8% increase in funding in 2004, they'll say that their budget was cut, because the increase in their budget wasn't as great. I recognized the possibility of that trick being pulled here.

(these numbers are just to make the math easy)
Let's say that the number of violent crimes in 2000 was 200,000. 15% of 200,000 equals 30,000. 30,000 knife-related crimes in 2000.
Now, a 4.1% decrease in violent crimes from 200,000 equals 191,800 violent crimes. 191,800 violent crimes in 2004. Now, 15.5% of 191,800 is 29,729.

So, if they determined that knife-related crime percentage had gone up after the total number of violent crimes had gone down, then although the percentage went up, the total of knife-related crimes actually went down!

Again, I can't be positive that this is the case, but it is very possible that this is the case with their numbers; and it seems like the kind of trick that would be pulled to scare Sheeple and get folks on their side through fear.
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The General
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#44

Post by The General »

peacefuljeffrey wrote:The only thing I can say is this:

Get your paperwork started NOW to apply for U.S. citizenship. Leave that hopelessly troubled, mentally addled place behind. Keep cherished memories of how cool it was long ago, and force yourself to forget about what kind of insane asylum it is now.

If you believe in the right to own knives and guns, we could use your support over here, where those things still exist to be protected. You'd be welcome.

-PJ
I would love to become an American citizen. I have looked into it and its just not going to happen any time soon.

Britain strangely enough is one of the countries you guys just don't seem interested in having new citizens from!!! :confused:

Its possible to do, but I would need a guaranteed job to go to and an employer willing to help me set up and help with all the paperwork. In effect just not going to happen.

I would be better off using my passport to get into America and then just "vanish" under the radar for five years and then apply for citizenship under the illegal immigration nonsense that is there. If that makes sense?

The fact I am a white guy, with NO criminal record, a good work history and a Degree in English ought to hold me in good stead. Not if I want an American passport... :(

If anyone here knows of an employer willing to help me or has any contacts able to get me American citizenship... **** I would be eternally grateful!
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#45

Post by smcfalls13 »

[quote="Blackhair"]Before I go on my soapbox, let me say that I can't guarantee that what I'm saying is true, this is just a trick that newspapers and government and movie studios generally use that I felt niggling at my Spydey Sense:

Did anybody else notice the (possible) trick with the numbers of violent crime in that knife article? The exact content of the article went thusly:
"the FBI says knife-related crimes have edged up, to 15.5% in 2004 from 15% in 2000. In that time, violent crime in general dropped 4.1%"

Now, people have a trick that they pull, where if they receive a 10% increase in funding in 2003, and they receive an 8% increase in funding in 2004, they'll say that their budget was cut, because the increase in their budget wasn't as great. I recognized the possibility of that trick being pulled here.

(these numbers are just to make the math easy)
Let's say that the number of violent crimes in 2000 was 200,000. 15% of 200,000 equals 30,000. 30,000 knife-related crimes in 2000.
Now, a 4.1% decrease in violent crimes from 200,000 equals 191,800 violent crimes. 191,800 violent crimes in 2004. Now, 15.5% of 191,800 is 29,729.

So, if they determined that knife-related crime percentage had gone up after the total number of violent crimes had gone down, then although the percentage went up, the total of knife-related crimes actually went down!

Again, I can't be positive that this is the case, but it is very possible that this is the case with their numbers]

This is a perfect example of "spinning the numbers" and you're 100% right about your suspicions, that's exactly what happens.
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#46

Post by Bolster »

Blackhair wrote: So, if they determined that knife-related crime percentage had gone up after the total number of violent crimes had gone down, then although the percentage went up, the total of knife-related crimes actually went down!
Interesting argument. The other possibility to consider is that the difference between 15% and 15.5% is statistically insignificant, but that the paper is acting as if it were significant. Statistically insignificant means: that random variation (in data, in analysis, in subject pool, in records, in errors, in classification, whatever) can account for the difference, rather than a "trend."

The other suspicious thing here is that they are comparing 2000 to 2004. What happened to 2001 and 2002 and 2003? If there's a trend, it should be up each year. Omitting data that doesn't "fit" with what the journalist wants to see is a common way to "prove" a faulty hypothesis and dupe a gullible public.

Eh, I could go on and on. Point being, beware journalists who are quoting statistics. They generally have no statistical expertise, and are often relying on someone with an agenda (a professional number manipulator) to "break down" (ie, spin) the numbers.
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#47

Post by cockroach »

Aren't statistics interesting......
Statistically the average human has less than 2 legs! (think about it).

PJ, General etc etc thanks for the discussion on this topic, some very interesting views.

And I'm still looking forward to an orange G10 sheepsfoot Spyderco Urban :D
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SaintSatinStain
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right to bear arms doesn't cover knives? how about

#48

Post by SaintSatinStain »

swords and spears, are they covered?

In a confrontation I dont think of using knives; I wasn't trained to fight with knives. I am an incompetent with knives as weapons. A cane is a better weapon for defense. I am a trained stick fighter.

I carry two D'Allara's, the drop point and the serrated sheepfoot (They are emergency knives), the CoPilot (which I use in my pocket size emergency kit in an Otter box), and the sheepfoot serrated Ladybug which I use more than
the others, say, to sharpen pencils, and other small jobs. It does not scare folk.

I am a cycle tourist, camper, so I need these tools, these knives. I dont understand how some folk dont need knives. I use some knife, even when not camping or touring, four or more times a day. I write; I sharpen pencils.

It would seem that during this time of the (over hyped) terrorist scares that the need for knives would be recognised. I carry a small first aid kit, pocket size, in town and an emergency kit which has a magnesium block, flint and steel, a Fire Starter Aviation Survival Spark-lite, wire saw, fishing line and hooks, plastic ties, stainless signaling mirror, sewing kit, and two blades - one a cheap stainless I use to shave the magnesium block and the other a CoPilot.
It is almost the bare minimum to make life easier in an emergency.

The minimum survival tools are flint and steel, the Fire Starter Aviation Spark-lite is an easy to use implementation, and a blade. Fire and a blade and you can make the rest, shelter, cook food, make potablel water, etc. You don't need nor want long blades. My spydercos are about 4 inches or less, my camping/survival knife(Kelgin custom desgned and made by Paula) has a 5.5 inch blade.

I will be peeved off if I survive a plane crash and know that my survival gear is in the cargo - was in the cargo. I'd have to chip a flint knife, I guess.

We are told to have emergency supplies at home, in our houses, apartments, and cars. Aren't knives important emergency tools, especially safe knives?

I have a house in Alabama and an apartment in NYC. The attitudes of folk in Alabama toward knives is so different from the narrow views of New Yorkers. In NYC
It shall be unlawful for any person to carry on his or her person or have in such person's possession, in any public place, street or park any knife which has a blade length of four inches or more.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person in a public place, street or park to wear outside of his or her clothing or carry in open view any knife with an exposed or unexposed blade unless such person is actually using such knife for a lawful purpose as set forth in subdivision d of this section.

D. The provisions of subdivisions b and c of this sections shall not apply to (1) persons in the military service on the state of New York when duly authorized to carry or display knives pursuant to regulations issued by the chief of stall to the governor; (2) police officers and peace officers as defined in the criminal procedure law; (3) participants in special events when authorized by the police commissioner (4) persons on the military or other service of the United States, in pursuit of official duty authorized by federal law; or (5) any person displaying or in possession of a knife otherwise in violation of this section when such a knife (a) is being used for or transported immediately to or from a place where it is used for hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, picnicking or any employment, trade or occupation customarily requiring the use of such knife; or (b) is displayed or carried by a member of a theatrical group, drill team, military or para military unit or veterans organization, to from or during a meeting, parade or other performance or practice for such event, which customarily requires the carrying of suck knife or (c) is being transported directly to or from a place of purchase in such a manner as not to allow easy access to such knife while it is transported; or (d) is displayed or carried by a duly enrolled member of the Boy or Girl scouts of America or similar organization or society and such display or possession is necessary to participate in the activities of such organization or society.

E. Violation of this section shall be an offense punishable by a fine of not more than three hundred dollars or by imprisonment not exceeding fifteen days or by both such fine and imprisonment.


Case notes:
This section promotes a legitimate governmental objective and is not unconstitutionally vague or an improper exercise of the city's police power.------ People v Ortiz 125 Misc. 2d 318 [1984]
If I clip a Spyderco to my pocket, even though only the clip and small part of top of knife shows, a NYPD officer can confiscate my knife if he or she believes that I am not a camper or an actor in Scaramouche.

In Alabama I and others wear knives in sheaths, clipped to belt, or pocket, and go into government buildings and no one notices a knife or cares. Alabama does have its share of inane laws; it bans Bowie knives and the like.
But still more enlightened than NYC.

Puritanism still lives.
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#49

Post by Grey Mullet »

It's possible. If elected, Giuliani could do for all of America what he did for New York.
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#50

Post by The Deacon »

SaintSatinStain wrote:In Alabama I and others wear knives in sheaths, clipped to belt, or pocket, and go into government buildings and no one notices a knife or cares. Alabama does have its share of inane laws; it bans Bowie knives and the like.
But still more enlightened than NYC.

Puritanism still lives.
Perhaps, but differences in demographics may play a role too. The population of Alabama is 4,600,000 and its area is 52,423 sq. miles. That gives it a population density of just under 88 people per square mile. On the other hand, the population of NYC is 8,200,000 packed into a mere 301 square miles for an average density of over 27,200 people per square mile. Furthermore, the density is over 67,000 per sq. mile in Manhattan, where most of the arrests for violation of their knife laws occur. Not only that, but those density figures do not include the average of 100,000 people who visit NYC each day and the several hundred thousand who commute there on weekdays to work.

Looked at from a positive, rather than a negative angle, despite that density, you are allowed to carry a locking folder with a blade up to 4" long, as long as you keep it completely in your pocket when not using it for legitimate purposes. And, all other considerations aside, it could be said that walking around any area that densely populated with a knife in plain sight is about as sensible as walking around the same area with your wallet hanging partway out of your pocket.
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#51

Post by scout »

It's illegal to carry a locking knife in San Antonio.
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#52

Post by Grey Mullet »

scout wrote:It's illegal to carry a locking knife in San Antonio.
That doesn't surprise me. Isn't this San Antonio's new motto?




"San Antonio, the New York of the South"
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#53

Post by SaintSatinStain »

The Deacon wrote:Perhaps, but differences in demographics may play a role too. The population of Alabama is 4,600,000 and its area is 52,423 sq. miles. That gives it a population density of just under 88 people per square mile. On the other hand, the population of NYC is 8,200,000 packed into a mere 301 square miles for an average density of over 27,200 people per square mile. Furthermore, the density is over 67,000 per sq. mile in Manhattan, where most of the arrests for violation of their knife laws occur. Not only that, but those density figures do not include the average of 100,000 people who visit NYC each day and the several hundred thousand who commute there on weekdays to work.

Looked at from a positive, rather than a negative angle, despite that density, you are allowed to carry a locking folder with a blade up to 4" long, as long as you keep it completely in your pocket when not using it for legitimate purposes. And, all other considerations aside, it could be said that walking around any area that densely populated with a knife in plain sight is about as sensible as walking around the same area with your wallet hanging partway out of your pocket.
Good point Deacon. It is the classical increase the number of rats in a limited space and they go crazy when crowded. True. Perhaps we should, and can because of new technologies, break up cities. There is no need to crowd in a few places. I've been thinking about moving to Brookings, SD. There is a college there, therefore some cultural and intellectual life; there is an airport so transport is available, but I prefer trains. But there is a constitutional component too. Are knives covered by the right to bear arms? Perhaps New York City could enact a law that has a severe penalty for parolees who carry a knife without permission of parole officers and that states that anyone convicted of a felony cannot carry a knife unless with approval from some local authority.

The solution for New York is to put folk away if convicted of using a knife, gun, baseball bat, or any weapon, or tool used as a weapon. The difference in five or ten years between commission of a crime with no weapon or threat of one, and no weapon and no threat of one, would, perhaps, help. I believe that those provisions exist already.

I admit that Manhattan is a problem, but the problem of dense population causes New York City to have problems in all areas as well.
Even though I admit NYC is a unique situation, one shared, I suppose, by other major cities, I still believe that the knife laws should not be so repressive. The problem is human behavior, not knives. How many people are killed by baseball bats, tire irons, and other tools or recreational items? Humans are the problem. Crowd them together and the problems are intensified. Any ideas? Ban bats? Legislate the length of bat that one may carry in public, unless a member of a professional, semi-professional, or school baseball team. Skinheads are not allowed to carry bats.
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#54

Post by Lostification »

New US law to ban locking folders !!!
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#55

Post by bladese97 »

:spyder: :spyder: :cool: :spyder: :spyder: What's up dude? I have been looking at the T-mag, and am thinking about getting one!
:spyder: :spyder: :cool: :spyder: :spyder: "Spyderco...does a pocket good":spyder:
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#56

Post by maxpower419 »

In this country, if a burglar can sue someone for hurting themselves while breaking into aforementioned someones house. Or sue Mcdonalds for pouring hot coffee in their crotch, its a pretty good sign that there doesn't need to be a law banning locking knives, the ones already in existence can pretty much be twisted to however an attorney sees fit :mad:
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may be a tongue in cheek proposal but

#57

Post by SaintSatinStain »

why not make a knife, non-locking, with a separate lock to prevent it from folding and severing several fingers (i like assonance). It would not be a locking knife, but would have an easily attached lock for the protection of the user.

I am not a designer but the knife would have a hole near the blade in the handle in which you could insert the lock. It ain't an elegant solution. It is a rather silly idea; although it is not as silly as the laws. Some designers, I'm sure, could come up with some designs.
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#58

Post by The Deacon »

SaintSatinStain wrote:why not make a knife, non-locking, with a separate lock to prevent it from folding and severing several fingers (i like assonance). It would not be a locking knife, but would have an easily attached lock for the protection of the user.

I am not a designer but the knife would have a hole near the blade in the handle in which you could insert the lock. It ain't an elegant solution. It is a rather silly idea; although it is not as silly as the laws. Some designers, I'm sure, could come up with some designs.
Am sure they could, however it would still be an inelegant solution to a non-existent problem, at least for those of us here in the USA. And, FWIW, at least some over in the UK seem to feel that such a system would still be interpreted as a locking folder there, as long as you had both the knife and the lock in your possession.

The existing NYC law does not differentiate between locking and non-locking, it restricts blade length and mode of carry. At least in theory, a sub 4" fixed blade carried fully concealed would be legal there, while a Mini-Mariner which has a 1" blade and is non-locking would be illegal if worn as intended.

As for your earlier comments suggesting a link between violence and population density, it ignores the fact that NYC has a far lower violent crime rate than a number of other major cities where the population is much less dense.

As an example, Los Angeles (the next largest US city) where half the number of people are spread out over 1.5 times as much area has nearly double the violent crime rate of NYC. So perhaps an analogy with African Rift Lake Cichlids in aquariums, where overcrowding prevents fighting by preventing territories from being established, would be more appropriate. I know that making that analogy is pure BS, but no more so than your rat analogy.

As for the RKBA issues, as much as I despise "anti-knife" laws, I severely doubt if a test case challenging them would even be heard by the US Supreme Court since, in the almost 100 years since the Sullivan Law was first enacted in 1911 nobody has been able to overturn it or any of the multitude of anti-gun laws which followed it.

Will a law banning locking folders ever be passed at a national level in the USA - I severely doubt it.

Will a law banning locking folders ever be passed by one or more US states at a state level - I doubt it, but would not rule it out.

Will a law banning locking folders ever be passed by one or more US cities or counties at a local level - I would not doubt it. In some places all it would take would be a couple high profile cases involving locking folders within a short period of time and politicians would be falling all over each other to show they were "solving the problem".

Will NYC be the first - not sure, but I tend to think perhaps someplace smaller, with an even more "pacifist" population will take that dubious honor.
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