One or Many?

[tortoise]

A current thread in the Spyderco forum, as well as much personal experience, has brought this question to the forefront of my mind. I've pondered it for a long time now, but never really sought the opinions of knife knuts (sorry, "knife people." ) I wonder what you think.

I shall assume for the sake of this discussion that we all have certain things in common. We all like knives and cutting tools. We all do use them; we're not collectors primarily, but rather people who sometimes, or often, or occasionally need to separate matter. We all enjoy "nice" things. We all, presumably, like fancy steels, or scales or whatever blade-related engineering innovation strikes your particular fancy. If at least this wasn't true, you probably wouldn't be on the Spyderco site.

My quandry is this: I now EDC a Large Regular Sebenza. For years I did, and on duty still do, carry a Military of one sort or other. But... for the cost of my Sebenza, which I greatly enjoy, I could have four Militaries. I could have seven Enduras or Natives. I know well about the Seb's engineering genius. I admire it greatly. This isn't about "Is a Sebenza worth it?" -I've already got one. It's a fine knife.

But still... Is there a difference between the pleasure a "finely" made knife gives and the pleasure of a fine performer of lesser cost? Is there a point when having an "expensive" user is nonsensical, even when that expensive user does satisfy? There is nothing, save perfect and repeated assembly and disassembly, that my Seb does that a Mil or Endura, or Native does not. And given their relative replacement value, I could use the latter group with almost reckless abandon compared with the former.

I think of this concept often and on several fronts. My favorite watch happens to be a Rolex, though the G-Shocks I wore for years rarely failed me. (They did, on occassion however.) -And here the same question applies.

Snap-On or Craftsman as it were. One Tiger or many Shermans? -Well we saw how that turned out.

Is one "near perfect" bit of kit, that is dear to replace, better than an easily substitutable item which performs the same function? Does aesthetic sensibility have a place in the real world of accident, mishap and Murphy's Law? Do you go for the perceived "best" tool you can afford, or one that does the job as well and that you can comfortably replace if need be? :confused:

[yablanowitz]

I generally go for the best tool I can afford. Unfortunately, that usually falls into the "affordable to replace" catagory :o

[Agent Starling]

hi tortoise,

don't torture yourself...over the whys and wherefores of knife use and ownership...unless of course you like that sort of thing! :) i know this well, your post sounds a bit like my brand of thinking, everything has to have a why and a reason and and and...we could split hairs all day...with Spyders I just buy the knives I like, basically. :D Just my $0.02. :spyder:

Agent Starling

[vampyrewolf]

I've got a Ti Skagen, yet i wear a G-100 G-shock all week... simply because the chances (and occurances) or smacking my arm into something is high. I can't kill the g-shock though I'm sure a dozen good smacks will kill the skagen.

It's not so much a question of price and quality, it's a question of how hard can you beat on something before it gives, and is there a better value for that same level of abuse. Same reason I use a superknife and an olfa at work, rather than my caly jr or millie... kills tips like nothing.

I say but what is going to give you more pleasure. I'd be happy with a dozen ss 'flys or '98 model endura's myself... but I know what can be done to them without breaking, and if/when I do manage to kill one, I have backups. I buy the best I can use hard... usually that means quality = high price, but not always, since you're still going to have to replace it at some point.

[squad314]

tortoise,you have raised an excellent question.This is an issue that my good buddy flipe8 and I have discussed at length many times.

I have had about 15 or so Spydies give or take.At timesI have moved a number of them to be able to buy one expensive knife.What invariably I find happening however is that when I have a very high-end knife I feel obligated to carry it.Unfortunately,when carrying an expensive piece,I find myself hesitant to use it for fear of damaging or losing it.When I'm carrying a Spydie,I use it hard as intended because if ruined or lost the replacement cost is reasonable.Basically I'm now of the mindset that instead of having one or two very expensive knives,I rotate a number with very specific applications and expectations.For example,when I'm carrying my ATR at work chances are good that it will be used hard and at the end of the day,scratches,chips and dings are to be expected.When I'm carrying my Mnandi at church,it's toughest job will likely be opening envelopes.

Having said this,I don't mean to imply that Spydies are disposable,just useable. :D

[tortoise]

...everything has to have a why, and a reason, and, and, and...

You've hit the nail on the head. I am definitely an over-thinker. Oh well, you have to go with what you're good at.

tortoise,you have raised an excellent question.This is an issue that my good buddy flipe8 and I have discussed at length many times.

Glad to hear that it's not just me. At-work-use is a big part of this conundrum. You don't want to compromise anything, materials for example, but any piece of equipment can fail. At that point ease of replacement becomes the issue. Even where cost isn't a factor, as with the "unconditional" warranty outifts, that still doesn't put a knife in your pocket while the broken one is out for repair. -Let alone if it wasn't broken, but lost!

It's like I alluded to, this same question has arisen forever in military terms: a (hopefully) "sufficient" amount of near perfect armaments versus an overwhelming number of "serviceable" stuff..

:confused: :)

[stonyman]

Pre-spyderco and while on patrol, my knife was a cs gunsite folder.......I know, I know! :D , but the thing about it is I never once was afraid to use it for the most mudane to extreme task in 4yrs. I also know of someone who had purchased a real high priced knife and about lost his mind on a "hot call" trying to find it! :eek:

I think in your profession, you should consider the most quality for your buck and one that you would not hesitate jamming or ripping into somethiing and yes able to get over the fact that you may lose it while at work. Hey if that is a Sebenza that you chose and do not mind working it out, then by all means go ahead and be proud to have it. Those Sebe's are nice indeed. Take care and God Bless!

[ergoproxy]

To what makes you happy. You can get 2 Toyota Camrys for the price of a nice 5 series Bimmer, then you can get 4 nice Bimmers for the price of a Bentley. Both will take you to Point A to Point B just fine. But the difference will be how you get there and how you feel on your way there. One person will be extremely happy with a Sebbie while someone will use it while waiting for a Scott Cook Lochsa, so on and so forth. It really is all relative to what tickles your fancy and what you can afford to tickle your fancy. Last night, I was looking at Snody's Custom Yojimbos, Ronins, etc. Can I afford to buy one, maybe, will I be just as happy if I get the production models Spyderco and Benchmade offer, probably. If you're happy and content with what you have right now, whatever it is, that's what counts. Be it a $400 CRK or a $40 Delica. :) :spyder:

And yes, I stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night, so everything that I've said doesn't count. :D :D :D

[Razors84]

If they would just make....

A titanium-handled ZDP Spyder-Hole Axis-Lock Tip-Up Tip-down Waved Sebenza...

for under $50...

...I could answer this question!

[Chucula]

I think you have answered your own question.

You ask:

Is there a difference between the pleasure a "finely" made knife gives and the pleasure of a fine performer of lesser cost?

So the question revolves around what gives pleasure and at what cost.

You say the sebenza is "worth" the cost (at least, thats what it sounds like):

This isn't about "Is a Sebenza worth it?" -I've already got one. It's a fine knife.

You also say it does not perform any better than cheaper knives:

There is nothing, save perfect and repeated assembly and disassembly, that my Seb does that a Mil or Endura, or Native does not.

So, since it is worth the cost but does not perform better, it must have qualities beyond a knife that you value. I would guess that these qualities, such as fine craftsmanship or artistic touch, bring pleasure to you.


Your answer is yes--a knife can bring pleasure from more than just cutting well. Otherwise, the sebenza would not be worth the cost, creating a contradiction in what you said. And in this situation, a contradiction is the same as saying nothing at all. :D

EDIT: I guess I'll answer this from my perspective too. I agree that an expensive knife can bring pleasure a simpler, cheaper knife cannot. However, I dont like the idea of paying an extra $300 just for a prettier knife. I'd go for the tool that does the job best and has the lowest cost.

[tortoise]

...a knife can bring pleasure from more than just cutting well.

Absolutely, we agree.

But that's a given here and isn't my question. My question is: what is the opinion of other knife people about this?

I do like my Sebenza, very much, enough to pay the price of admission, and to carry and use it over other knives that it is not a markedly superior "knife" to. There is more to the package than the sum of its parts. I recognize and acknowledge this.

I cannot pay to replace it over and over as might become necessary when one carries and uses an expensive blade in real world (-God help me ) "hard use" conditions.

So I'm not asking the tired, "Is it worth it?" question. I'm too old, too experienced and too opinionated to bother with that. -No one can tell anyone else the answer to that question.

I'm asking people who actually use knives what they think about fielding one "near-perfect" tool that is difficult to replace, versus the "good" tool that can be procured easily. Tiger vs. Sherman, P7 vs. G19, M-16 vs. AK-47?

I hope that makes sense, though I'm feeling like I may not be laying it out clearly enough to get away from the darn, "Is it worth it?" gestalt, and bring in the real opinions that I'm hoping to find. :confused:

If so, it's on me.

[yablanowitz]

In "real world hard use", tools wear out. Good tools take longer to wear out than cheap tools as a general rule. I prefer "good enough" over "top of the line", simply because I usually am the one paying for the replacement when the time comes. I have carried and used $250 - $300 knives in the past, and they did not get babied. They also did not get replaced with $250 knives when the time came. I just can't afford to keep doing that.

I know one Sebenza would outlast a dozen Manixes for me, but only because I hate framelocks and metal handles, so I'd never carry the Sebbie enough to wear it out. The same can be said for my ATR. An expensive custom folder that I liked might outlast one Manix, but I doubt it would outlast the three or four I could buy for the same money. When you actually use them enough to wear one out once in a while, that becomes a major consideration (unless you're made out of money, which I'm not.)

I guess that puts me in the AK-47 camp.

[jujigatame]

I don't think it's a matter of your question not being clearly asked, but when one forms an answer and it feels more like equivocation or compromise than a definitive judgment I think it's natural to feel the former isn't as good as the latter, even if the situation doesn't require the latter. It is a matter of personal opinion, so if opinions go all over the place, including my own, that's just par for the course.

When you get down to what does knife ABC do solely as a tool versus knife XYZ and they're pretty much the same, then I guess one could just flip a coin to decide which one to buy or to put in their pocket for the day. But... there's more to it than that, at least for me. I think appreciating the quality of a Spyderco alongside a Sebenza or an SAK alongside a Tony Bose is what gives a lot of pleasure in collecting and using knives. Aesthetics have as great a place in your world as you're willing to ascribe them. Your percentage is probably different than mine and even if we were close I think we might well find differences going from individual knife to knife.

Would I be a lot more upset about losing or damaging a custom folder than my old Endura? Yeah, because the money and the time needed to replace one are greater for one than the other, and I don't have a surplus of either. At the same time, though, the fact that the custom knife is more special in ways that are quantifiable to me is part of what may put the bigger smile on my face when I look at it and carry it. I have tried hard to shape my knife collection around the primary idea to not purchase knives beyond a certain price point if I'm honestly saying I would never carry/use that because it's too nice. So if a knife has passed that particular hurdle and I know that I will be comfortable taking it out, I try not to sweat the details beyond that. Of course, if I won the lottery tomorrow then all of that is kinda out the window. :)

If I have concerns about risk for a knife in particular setting or situation, I will do my best to determine which one I feel I can trust to reliably perform to the highest level. If the s*** is going to hit the fan then I want the best tool I can get my hands on, cost be damned. I have some knives I trust in a case like that, others that I probably don't.

I know that's a muddled bunch of thoughts, but hopefully something in there is what you're looking for.

[dete]

if I'm not mistaken I think your asking if I'm a Samurai or a Ninja. :D

Samurai
carries an awesome quality sword with his family crest on it.

Ninja
carries a disposable unidentifyable generic sword.


When it comes down to it, I am a ninja.
I believe more in the skills of the user than the tool.

BUT does a good quality tool help? without a doubt!

[Chucula]

Ah I got caught up with the explicit question. I should have put a bit more thought into reading your post rather than trying to be a smarty pants :p


To answer your real question, I would prefer one good tool to a bunch of disposable tools. I used to convince myself that only a fool would carry a $500 worth of gear, especially fragile electronics, with him all day. Not anymore :)

In my experience, quality beats quantity any day.

When it comes down to it, I am a ninja.
I believe more in the skills of the user than the tool.

So tell me...what could a ninja do with a sword made out of elbow macaroni? :D
I agree that the user is more important than the tool. But thats not the question. or is it. I'm lost :p