Advice needed: Terzuola situation

[Daniel]

Find some jobs to do around "the outside" of your house that he is able to do and have him work off his "debt" to you.

[Bluntrauma]

But he really did not see his actions as theft, and after he realized the seriousness of it and that our friendship was on the line over this incident, he was tearful and apologetic, and said that he would "never ever" steal anything from me. "But you already did" was my answer, and he did offer to pay for the knife "when he has money", whenever that is.

Even a child knows that you do not take/borrow things that do not belong to you. I would have serious concern about someone who did not see this as an issue until you talked to him about it. I would either make him replace the knife with one of equal collectors value or pony up the high end price of what the knife is worth.

Most people have a clear understanding of right and wrong and I think that most people would know that this is wrong on so many levels. Good luck on this one.

[Simple Man]

So my quandary really is: what's the best way of both preserving the friendship and teaching him a valuable lesson? Money, or gift?

I would definitely show him the Ebay links to impress upon him the value of the knife and situation (check completed items also). It seems like there is a mentor relationship here as much as a friendship. You have a chance, if handled correctly, to possibly change the way he looks and does things for many years to come.

I suggest you use grace, forgive him, let him know that he is more important to you than a knife, but there are consequences for wrong actions. In the real world, when we do wrong, even if we are sorry, we still have to go through the consequences. If you can teach him this, it will be much more valuable to him and you than a knife ever was.

I suggest, since you are not emotionally attached to the knife, to let him buy it from you at NIB market price and keep track of how much he owes you. That said, I would also make it a point to try to spend more time with him letting him help you do some things to "work it off" at a fair rate, but don't make the relationship only about that, still run around and have some fun as before the incident. If you think he is responsible and committed enough, go ahead and let him have and carry the knife, if not, hold onto it until it is 1/2 payed off or so.

It will take some time and effort on your part, but will be worth it in the long run.

3. Give him the knife for free since apparently he likes it a lot more than I do. This would be taking the moral high road, in hopes that he'd feel some shame for his actions, which could be a better approach than making him pay money, which might give him a sense of entitlement to the knife and teach him nothing.

Sorry Rob, but I don't see this as taking the moral high road, I see it as rewarding him for theft. If he does pay for it, it will give him a pride of ownership, and hopefully remind him of lessons learned when he uses and carries it.

[Manix Guy 2]

Sorry to hear about this , you have to do what is right for you and your home . Things can be replaced but true friends are hard to come by . It appears your are more worried about his feelings than the his actions . He put himself in this position , make him do the right thing and replace it . If you had to explain how wrong his actions were what more will you have to do in the future ? As far as I see it he may have looked up to you in your eyes but he did not respect you when he took a possession of yours ( out of your home ) without your knowledge . Sorry if I sound mean , regards MG2 .

[GarageBoy]

Well, it's a Spydie and it's used now. Take it back, give him something to use and to cherish, or atleast tell him that the C15 is a 100+$ knife

[Raqudu]

[quote="Simple Man"]I would definitely show him the Ebay links to impress upon him the value of the knife and situation (check completed items also). It seems like there is a mentor relationship here as much as a friendship. You have a chance, if handled correctly, to possibly change the way he looks and does things for many years to come.

I suggest you use grace, forgive him, let him know that he is more important to you than a knife, but there are consequences for wrong actions. In the real world, when we do wrong, even if we are sorry, we still have to go through the consequences. If you can teach him this, it will be much more valuable to him and you than a knife ever was.

I suggest, since you are not emotionally attached to the knife, to let him buy it from you at NIB market price and keep track of how much he owes you. That said, I would also make it a point to try to spend more time with him letting him help you do some things to "work it off" at a fair rate, but don't make the relationship only about that, still run around and have some fun as before the incident. If you think he is responsible and committed enough, go ahead and let him have and carry the knife, if not, hold onto it until it is 1/2 payed off or so.

It will take some time and effort on your part, but will be worth it in the long run.
QUOTE]

I would agree with Simple Man. I would also suggest that you let your friend have the knife as a reminder of what he has done.

Thank you also, Rob, for doing your part in turning a kid into a man.

[spydutch]

Well he apologized and felt sorry so I figure he learned his lesson.

I say forgive and forget about it. Longterm friend ship is more important IMO.

[Andre V]

Well you have had a chat with him and he has apologized. Its easier to replace a knife than a friend. Like Spydutch said forgive and forget.

Look at the bright side at least he broke it in for you. Seeing as its used now you wont have any issues using it yourself.

[Dannyvi]

Incidentally, the one on ebay sold for $242.50. I also have the same knife also used and some finish came off. Nice knife !Can this be refinished at Spyderco?

[SpyRC]

I would definitely show him the Ebay links to impress upon him the value of the knife and situation (check completed items also). It seems like there is a mentor relationship here as much as a friendship. You have a chance, if handled correctly, to possibly change the way he looks and does things for many years to come.

I suggest you use grace, forgive him, let him know that he is more important to you than a knife, but there are consequences for wrong actions. In the real world, when we do wrong, even if we are sorry, we still have to go through the consequences. If you can teach him this, it will be much more valuable to him and you than a knife ever was.

I suggest, since you are not emotionally attached to the knife, to let him buy it from you at NIB market price and keep track of how much he owes you. That said, I would also make it a point to try to spend more time with him letting him help you do some things to "work it off" at a fair rate, but don't make the relationship only about that, still run around and have some fun as before the incident. If you think he is responsible and committed enough, go ahead and let him have and carry the knife, if not, hold onto it until it is 1/2 payed off or so.

It will take some time and effort on your part, but will be worth it in the long run.




Sorry Rob, but I don't see this as taking the moral high road, I see it as rewarding him for theft. If he does pay for it, it will give him a pride of ownership, and hopefully remind him of lessons learned when he uses and carries it.

Thanks to everyone for their help with this difficult (for me) situation, which apparently is more about friendship, trust, and honesty than about a knife.

I think what Simple Man suggests is the best course of action to take. I was somewhat surprised by the ~$240 bid on the Terzuola, which seems a bit high, but then again check out prices on old muscle cars these days. I guess things that are rare and in new condition will just keep going up and up.

I suspect that the motives I attributed to this theft are perhaps correct, but are a more mature person's way of thinking. Probably my friend just saw an object that he wanted, took it without thinking about why, and didn't think about the consequences, assuming we were good enough friends that it wouldn't make any difference. Very naiive.

I *think* that just giving him the knife with an explanation would not be enough; he'd still just think that he can get away with whatever he wants with a few harsh words to sit thru. I think he'd be better served by having to pay money over time, which is going to be a PITA for him, and he'd actually have to give up aspects of his life to do it.

And will he actually do it? I guess this is the main reason I think this course of action is the best: if he pays me, then it means he values our friendship and is willing to work to maintain it, which is pretty mature. If he flakes, then our friendship is over and he'll have to deal with that. It's more about what I can expect in the future wrt his behaviour.

Asking for FMV for a NIB knife is really a litmus test as to the depth of his friendship with me, whether anything like this will ever happen again, and is worth a lot more than $240.

Rob

[The Deacon]

Couple things to take into account when "setting a price". Model matters - the C19 Terzuola Jr. generally fetches a somewhat higher price than the larger C15. Edge matters - plain edge always fetches more than serrated. Condition matters, there's a difference in price between a knife that is in absolutely dead mint condition and one with even the slightest signs of use or "storage rash", at least on models like the Terzuola's that, while desirable and in relatively uncommon, are by no means rare. If the knife were stored loose in a desk drawer for 15 years, it may have acquired a bit of "character" just from sliding around when the drawer was opened and closed. Assuming "dead mint", then packaging matters - not having the original box decreases the value. So the price that C19 fetched may be anywhere from slightly to considerably higher that what your knife was worth before your young friend misappropriated it. Which is not to suggest that insisting he compensates you for it is a bad idea.

While I do tend to be a bit on the both the cynical and paranoid side, you might want to ask yourself is whether this was the first time he did something like that, or merely the first time he got caught.

[The Mastiff]

This guy isn't a friend. Friends don't steal from each other. He needs to reimburse you for the current cost of the knife or you should consider legal action. I agree this was likely the first he was caught or admitted to. Anyway I see no reason to trust him and allow him in the house or anywhere else he could do damage. Joe

[SpyRC]

Couple things to take into account when "setting a price". Model matters - the C19 Terzuola Jr. generally fetches a somewhat higher price than the larger C15. Edge matters - plain edge always fetches more than serrated. Condition matters, there's a difference in price between a knife that is in absolutely dead mint condition and one with even the slightest signs of use or "storage rash", at least on models like the Terzuola's that, while desirable and in relatively uncommon, are by no means rare. If the knife were stored loose in a desk drawer for 15 years, it may have acquired a bit of "character" just from sliding around when the drawer was opened and closed. Assuming "dead mint", then packaging matters - not having the original box decreases the value. So the price that C19 fetched may be anywhere from slightly to considerably higher that what your knife was worth before your young friend misappropriated it. Which is not to suggest that insisting he compensates you for it is a bad idea.

While I do tend to be a bit on the both the cynical and paranoid side, you might want to ask yourself is whether this was the first time he did something like that, or merely the first time he got caught.

Thanks for the value education. I assume then that my knife would have been worth less than $240: it is serrated, and *possibly* ever so slightly chafed from drawer opening/closing etc... I kept it in the empty half of a check box. I never really examined it with intent to sell, since it made quite a nice letter opener... And I threw away the box when I first got it.

So that would probably put the real value in the high $100 range, but for the purposes of this exercise I think using the current eBay price is the easiest. He's not going to know about these subtleties, and mentioning them will lead to a debate about what the knife is actually worth, thus confusing the issue, which is more about stealing than price. It would be easier for him to wrap his head around a known concrete eBay result. Besides, maybe I'm entitled to some punitive damages for having to go thru this BS?

That said, your cynicism and paranoia are correct. I know for a fact this is not the first time he's done something like this, he just hasn't done it to me. The other times have involved considerably more expensive items.

Rob

[markg]

If I am to understand the nature of the relationship you described earlier, it seems that his "taking" of this item was a way to form some connection to an important person in his life. We all do this, maybe it was a pocket knife your grandfather gave you, or a watch your father gave you. It is something we carry around with us, to remind us of, and to reinforce a physical connection to an important person. Given the age difference in your relationship, I would say he sees you as a "mentor" as much as a friend. Keeping that in mind, anything you say, in regards to this issue will be taken seriously by him.

However, in most cases, these important items are normally given by a person to another person. The simple act of taking them, without your knowledge, is a clear violation of a boundary. For example, if my wife wears my favorite sweatshirt, because it reminds her of me, that is all fine and well, and she does not need my permission to do so. She has even used some of my knives, that were never meant to be used, and I politely point out another knife that would have been a better choice. For a friend to take a knife without your knowledge is clearly a violation of a boundary. That is the issue that needs to be worked out. He is not 10 years old, and needs to be "taught the value of things." If your true intent is to help him to learn not to do this again, then helping him to understand that what he did, did not make the relationship more meaningful, but harmed it. What is the more important lesson at hand, is that when you violate boundaries in relationships, bad things happen. In this case, at best, you weaken the trust in the relationship, and at worst, you harm the relationship beyond repair. Putting new boundaries in your relationship will be the most effective way of reinforcing what is important. It seems that he had done this before to others, was the "stealing" of the same nature as here? Or was he stealing things for personal profit? You might also examine if you are putting yourself at far too much risk in this relationship? Are you the one who needs to also "learn a hard lesson" in trust? I know, been there... When we trust people who we really should not have.

Here is my suggestion... At 21, I doubt he will be able to afford a $250, yet alone, $150 pocket knife. Is there another knife you would like, that would fit into a more reasonable dollar range for him? Let's say a knife in the $50-70 range. Tell him that you would like that knife as a replacement. Leave it up to him to get it. Since it is well within his means (heck it may only be a Delica he could afford!) he should be able to pull off getting the knife. If he does not do it, then it should tell you something about the relationship. If he is not willing to buy you a replacement knife, that he can afford to buy, then you might need to rethink your relationship.

[Fred Sanford]

I must be odd man out on this one. Maybe I'm just too nice.

I would give him the knife. Tell him that hopefully he's learned a lesson.

You said you never really liked the knife, and at least he's getting use out of it. I will however admit that would have been mad too.

Going forward....just let it go. Life is too short for crap like this.

Love people......use things.

[SpyRC]

snip It seems that he had done this before to others, was the "stealing" of the same nature as here? Or was he stealing things for personal profit? You might also examine if you are putting yourself at far too much risk in this relationship? Are you the one who needs to also "learn a hard lesson" in trust? I know, been there... When we trust people who we really should not have.

Here is my suggestion... At 21, I doubt he will be able to afford a $250, yet alone, $150 pocket knife. Is there another knife you would like, that would fit into a more reasonable dollar range for him? Let's say a knife in the $50-70 range. Tell him that you would like that knife as a replacement. Leave it up to him to get it. Since it is well within his means (heck it may only be a Delica he could afford!) he should be able to pull off getting the knife. If he does not do it, then it should tell you something about the relationship. If he is not willing to buy you a replacement knife, that he can afford to buy, then you might need to rethink your relationship.

The stealing he has done before was purely for personal profit to cover expenses related to the typical youth mistake of overliving his budget on an "illusion of wealth" lifestyle. He's got a decent job; I don't know exactly what he makes, but he seems to be able to pay $900 rent, a $300 car payment, and a $100-200 cell phone bill, but I think that's stretching it. He does not have a credit card, so he's not borrowing the money to cover these expenses. Yet he always seems to be short of money, and eating Ramen/not having enough $$ for gas to go places, which suggests to me that he's making just enough to cover the basics. That's why I believe he can afford $240 for the knife, but it's going to hurt a bit.

[Stevie Ray]

My vote is to show him the results of the last ebay auction, adjust the price for the variables Deacon mentions and ask for the cash. Whether he pays up or not, I would have a hard time being at ease with him hanging around my house in the future. Afterall, ... what's next?

[The Deacon]

Well, another pricing option would be to go to Ted's Catalog Page, download a copy of the 1994 Spyderco catalog in PDF format, and use that price ($149.95) as the value. Since discounting of Spydercos was nowhere near as prevalant then as it is now, that's very likely pretty close to what you paid for it.

[Fred Sanford]

The stealing he has done before was purely for personal profit to cover expenses related to the typical youth mistake of overliving his budget on an "illusion of wealth" lifestyle. He's got a decent job; I don't know exactly what he makes, but he seems to be able to pay $900 rent, a $300 car payment, and a $100-200 cell phone bill, but I think that's stretching it. He does not have a credit card, so he's not borrowing the money to cover these expenses. Yet he always seems to be short of money, and eating Ramen/not having enough $$ for gas to go places, which suggests to me that he's making just enough to cover the basics. That's why I believe he can afford $240 for the knife, but it's going to hurt a bit.

Well after reading this and re-thinking it, I think he should definately pay you back. I would make him buy the knife off of you for at least $150, and only after that give it back to him.

I didn't understand the entire story before my first post.

[Jazz]

I would forgive him, but I wouldn't trust him. That's just not something real friends do - snooping in your drawers - not at all. Not cool at all with me.
And... that there is a real sweet knife! Even though you didn't really use it, he should pay you for it definately - my humble opinion.
- best wishes, Jazz.