Lotsa New Benchmades, Lotsa Round Holes

[Johnny11758]

Benchmade has returned to the round hole. Will the fur start flying?

http://www.benchmade.com/products/produ ... category=1

[Fred Sanford]

This is like the third post here regarding BM using round holes. :)

Here are the other two threads...

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25987

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26159

[Zac]

there are a few threads on this already. the consensus is that Benchmade and Spyderco reached an agreement which will allow good things to happen for both companies.

[Jordan]

The only thing that still puzzles me is that Benchmade doesn't acknowledge the Spyderco-BM agreement... it makes sense to me that they would try to capture some market share with this whole thing instead of just producing knives that look eerily like another manufacturers'... I mean, it wouldn't work, as we are all very well aware, those who know choose spyderco... but I don't understand why they don't do it anyway.

Bah, I never could wrap my head around corporate strategy. I like my spydies just fine, and I'm sure the new minigrip and dejavoo are very nice knives.

[MacTech]

there are a few threads on this already. the consensus is that Benchmade and Spyderco reached an agreement which will allow good things to happen for both companies.

Hmm, call me cynical if you must, but if it was a "good" agreement, wouldn't one or both companies be able to tell us more than "an agreement has been reached but we can't talk about it", when i read between the lines, i get the feeling Spyderco's getting screwed.....

....of course, i could be completely off the mark and completely wrong here (dear Og i *hope* that's the case....)

[4 s ter]

the consensus is that Benchmade and Spyderco reached an agreement which will allow good things to happen for both companies.

Bolding by 4 s ter

This may be your opinion but I think it is FAR from "the consensus" that good things will happen for BOTH companies. Nothing said by either company implies that in any way. They have only said that there is an agreement which is confidential - nothing more. It is purely conjecture suggest that Spyderco benefits in any way. I might give credence to the suggestion if Spyderco was at least given credit for their trademarked IP - but, of course, it isn't.

[OuchThatsSharp]

Have to admit the new Benchmade Dejavoo looks a lot like a Spyderco design. It is even a collaboration with Lum. I personally like it and will probably buy one. I do wish they would give Spyderco credit for the "we have teamed up with Bob Lum to create a powerful design cutting tools. The Dèjávoo goes round-hole for openers,". Seems only right. They mentioned the designer's name, why not Spyderco?

[yablanowitz]

I have seen no evidence that Spyderco benefits in any way from the agreement. All the evidence I have seen so far indicates the Benchmade is simply cashing in on Spyderco's brand recognition.

[bh49]

May be somebody can help me. Why BM does thru all these trouble like design modification, manufacturing. Would not it be just more efficient to buy Spydercos direct, remove :spyder: , put butterfly, raise price 50% and here we go counting cash.

[ruxton]

Agreed from what I've seen the only company benefiting from this is Benchmade. I already had a fairly low opinion of Benchmade before they started ripping off Spyderco's designs but this has reached a whole new level.

The Dejavoo is basically a Lum Chinese in G-10 "You will only think you have seen this before...".

The Pika 2 and Mini-Pika 2 look suspiciously like the Delica and Endura but not as ergonomic.

The Vex looks the most original (well as original as you can get while still having a Trademark Spyderco Round-Hole), but that's already been discussed to death.

I too get the feeling that Spyderco is getting screwed over here.
Boycott Benchmade! :mad:

[Rogcohen]

I've said it a couple times, if I want a hole opening linerlock, I'll go to Spyderco, If I want an Axis I'll go to Benchmade. I prefer Spyderco mainly due to a sense of loyalty to the company, but will buy Benchmade's I like. But these new Benchmade knvies look like Spydercos, and I'll just buy the Spyderco counterpart, out of loyalty and because Spyderco does it better. Benchmade makes some great knives, but if I want a benchmade I want a "Benchmade" style knife. Saying that, I liked the Lum a little (cause it's Lum) but my favourite was the 14205. It's G10, Axis, Thumb stud. Looks like a good knife and looks like a Benchmade. If I want a Spyderco I'll just buy a Spyderco.
Roger

[Zac]

Bolding by 4 s ter

This may be your opinion but I think it is FAR from "the consensus" that good things will happen for BOTH companies. Nothing said by either company implies that in any way. They have only said that there is an agreement which is confidential - nothing more. It is purely conjecture suggest that Spyderco benefits in any way. I might give credence to the suggestion if Spyderco was at least given credit for their trademarked IP - but, of course, it isn't.

The consensus is not fact and there is way too much stuff not known. Benchmade representatives have said this themselves about good stuff. Maybe I should rephrase it as 'good'. I do not remember if any Spyderco employees have said this. While it does indeed seem Benchmade has gone slap happy with the round hole, Spyderco could be doing an Axis lock for all we know. Is it sketchy? Absolutely! Is there much we can do? Other than not buy them if you don't like them, no. Both companies seem to be doing financially well. In the past, Benchmade has produced Spyderco knives, and I would imagine that Spyderco has produced Benchmade knives. Maybe this will happen again. No one knows except a few. As far as a track record, I do not see why everyone is so surprised. Benchmade has in the past done other things by what appears to be a different style than acknowledging sources publicly. Take their mono lock, or frame lock they are using on their blades. This lock is called the "Reeve Integral Lock" started in the Sebenza which is the "Sebenza Integral Lock", which was copyrighted and developed by Mr. Reeve himself. They have never given Reeve any credit for this; so if an agreement was made, it is not publicly acknowledged. Likewise, the agreement between Benchmade and Spyderco is not acknowledged. It does not seem their style to publicly announce agreements.

Now does this mean a company is getting screwed? Well if they are getting a decent percentage or fixed pay on each knife sold, I don't think screwed would be the proper word.

[clovisc]

i must say, these knives do look appealling... particularly the lum... but i'm confused about the agreement, and exactly who or what i'm supporting if i buy a BM... so i think i'll be avoiding these holey BMs altogether, in lieu of spydies...

although, the lum.... hmmmmmmm...

[Padawan]

Hmm, call me cynical if you must, but if it was a "good" agreement, wouldn't one or both companies be able to tell us more than "an agreement has been reached but we can't talk about it", when i read between the lines, i get the feeling Spyderco's getting screwed.....)

I'd have to agree. Between the names of some of the new Benchmades (Vex - annoy, Dejavoo - seen this before) and the fact that Sal did not seem terribly enthusiastic when he commented about the agreement, the conclusion I draw is that it isn't an equitable deal. Just one several reasons why I don't intend to purchase any additional Benchmades in the near future.

[ruxton]

EDIT: In response to Zac...
You're right it doesn't seem to be Benchmade's "style" to give people credit for their inventions/ideas. Have a look at page 49 of this years spydie catalog...

Ball Chain, Cordura, CPM, Crucible, Empire/Boltaron, H-1, Kevlar, KRATON, Kydex,
Linerlock, Micarta, Para Cord, Tek-Lock, 440V and S30V are registered trademarks of
their respective holders.
Michael Walker is the inventor of the ball bearing detent that is used to keep the
blade in a Linerlock closed. H. McBurnette and Al Mar are credited with the positive
front lock design. Wave feature licensed under Emerson Pat. #5.878.500.
Copyright © 2006-2007. All rights reserved. All product names, art and text herein
are the property of Spyderco,

Now I haven't seen the 2007 BM catalog but in their 2006 one they just list their own trademarks and patents and don't mention any of the inventors of any of the features on their knives. Probably because most of them are from Spyderco (pocket clips, serrations, round holes etc.). It's Spyderco's "style" to go out of their way to give credit where credit is due (E.G. the emerson patent stamped on the blades of the waved E4s and D4s). It's Benchmades "style" do not give anyone but themselves credit whether it's due or not. That alone means I will never buy a Benchmade no matter how good they are.

IF it turns out to be the case that Spyderco are being screwed over (I.E. they took BM to court and lost, and now BM is putting spyderholes on half its lineup without paying spyderco royalties or even publicly acknowledging where the spyderhole came from)... Well... GRRRR :mad:

[4 s ter]

The consensus is not fact and there is way too much stuff not known. Benchmade representatives have said this themselves about good stuff. Maybe I should rephrase it as 'good'. I do not remember if any Spyderco employees have said this.

They haven't.

While it does indeed seem Benchmade has gone slap happy with the round hole, Spyderco could be doing an Axis lock for all we know. Is it sketchy? Absolutely! Is there much we can do? Other than not buy them if you don't like them, no. Both companies seem to be doing financially well. In the past, Benchmade has produced Spyderco knives,

If I remember correctly, only the Terzuola, before Spyderco established their own factory

and I would imagine that Spyderco has produced Benchmade knives.

None that I'm aware of, but possibly someone else knows of one.

Maybe this will happen again. No one knows except a few. As far as a track record, I do not see why everyone is so surprised.

Based on Benchmade's track record, I'm not surprised.

Benchmade has in the past done other things by what appears to be a different style than acknowledging sources publicly. Take their mono lock, or frame lock they are using on their blades. This lock is called the "Reeve Integral Lock" started in the Sebenza which is the "Sebenza Integral Lock", which was copyrighted and developed by Mr. Reeve himself. They have never given Reeve any credit for this]

Your examples do seem to show that it isn't Benchmade's "style to publicly announce agreements". But why are they quite willing to give credit to some, such as Blackwood or Lum, but not others such as Reeve or Glesser?

Now does this mean a company is getting screwed? Well if they are getting a decent percentage or fixed pay on each knife sold, I don't think screwed would be the proper word.

If "they are getting a decent percentage or fixed pay on each knife sold" then "screwed" wouldn't apply. But we don't know that do we? Therefore, all I'm left with is to wonder why the agreement is one which gives no recognition to Spyderco's intellectual property. I do know that I can't remember an example of Spyderco using anyone else's IP without giving credit where credit is due.

[WOTANSON1]

The lack of credit for their "round opening hole" confirms to me that Benchmade in general and Les is particular are a bunch of POS's, not that I've ever found a reason to buy one of their knives, as thumb studs aren't my cup o' joe :rolleyes: ! If you ask this mans opinion, looks to me that Benchmade did a little "better negotiate a settlement later than ask permission today" kinda thing, and things like this are usually settled out of court with neither side admitting they did anything wrong and the agreement kept secret. Then again I might be wrong.
Cheers,
Rob

[SoCal Operator]

I don't really mind. While I don't like that BM is not recognizing Sal publicly for use of the hole, I do like that they are actually using it. And now that they're teaming up with Lum, they may start to put out some models that appeal to me aesthetically, perhaps even (:eek :) functionally.

[zenheretic]

During the whole Vex controversy, there were a lot of Newbies stirring the **** just whenever the whole thing was blowing over and dieing down. Now I see a lot of *!%$heals doing the same bullcrap. :mad: I didn't figure it out until I went and looked on the Benchmade forums and saw the same *!%&heals over there.

You want to talk about Benchmade knives? Go to Benchmade and talk about them. You want to rub our noses in it? Do it in off topic.

*Edited for content - Taz

[Zac]

Benchmade seems to give designers credit and that is it. Locks and opening methods do not seem to apply. While I personally do not see this as right, others may feel a different way and apparently some legislation does as well. Spyderco will credit all designers on individual parts of the blades. Ex: David Boye Dent, Emerson Wave, Reeve Integral Lock, Crucible Steel, Hitachi, etc. Some may not feel this is important but having writings of mine plagiarized, I do see the importance of giving credit to intellectual designs and ideas.