Another gun question

[poodle]

i have worked at a gun store/shooting range for some time now, and glocks on average by far last the longest with the least problems times 10 compared to any other gun we rent period. the a.d. you discribed is a n.d. i know when its feels like a accident you want to call it a a.d., but its not. its a n.d.

[J Smith]

Interjection - For those not watching, there is a (currently derailed MOSTLY thanks to John Bolton) effort in the UN to ban personal gun ownership. If this passes it would have to be signed by the President to become law in the US (effectively repealing the 2nd Amendment). Be vigilant!

To topic - I know it's not really practical but I just LOVE my S&W .50. What a blast that thing is to shoot. Guarantee it could kill a Hummer if it had to.

Ken

That would lead to a civil war in the US.

[Trihonda]

i have worked at a gun store/shooting range for some time now, and glocks on average by far last the longest with the least problems times 10 compared to any other gun we rent period. the a.d. you discribed is a n.d. i know when its feels like a accident you want to call it a a.d., but its not. its a n.d.

I understand and appreciate your fondness for Glocks. They're not bad guns. However, I disagree with their being better than Sigs. Our opinions differ, so lets just leave it at that (although, your wrong),

In all seriousness, as a LEO, I look at firearm discharges differently. I agree that common gun safety chatter says any innappropriate handling of a firearm is negligent, blah, blah. I can see this point, and agree to some extent. However, this logic could be carried to ad nausium (if you so chose). There IS such a thing as an accident.

And, unless it's an act of nature, accidents are someone's fault. I'm not excusing someone's carelessness, but if someone has an accidental discharge, it's just that. Were they negligent to some degree, probably. But it's still an accident.

Now, I associate negligence with incidents with more serious consequences or carelessness, such as twirling your gun around like in the movies, etc... It's a fine line, yes, but there's a difference. I've seen ADs by fine officers who are normally VERY safe (cleaning incidents). I wouldn't lump this into the same catagory as someone who was twirling their loaded gun around and "accidentally" shot someone (dumbass-like). This last example would be a negligent discharge IMHO.

We're probably both on the same page, just not conveying our thoughts very well... Or we're just stuck on semantics.

[zenheretic]

We're probably both on the same page, just not conveying our thoughts very well... Or we're just stuck on semantics.

That happens a lot on a forum. ]http://www.px4storm.com/index.aspx?m=53&did=55[/url]

[poodle]

i spill my drink on somebody we can call that an accident; if i unintentionally discharge my glock by accident with no intent to do so, and nobody suffers from my fopah it is still neglagent due to the grave nature of the event; so if you still have reservations reguarding such matters try having an a.d. inside your police station

[poodle]

sorry, what is true reguarding increased pressures from more potent rounds in glocks also holds true for wheel guns,revolvers,rifles,and increasing pressures for women isnt that great either

[poodle]

the biggest problem with 40 or 357 sig in glocks is because they like most gun makers like to use the same weight recoil springs in multible calibers thus longevity can suffer; however this is easy to overcome.

[smcfalls13]

Poodle, as someone who is not familiar with firearms, or safety for that matter, can you explain the difference between an accidental discharge and a negligent discharge?

I'm getting the impression that you believe that ANY discharge of a firearm is negligent if it's unintended.

[Zac]

the wait: day 1
-bought cleaner kit
-rented a g19 and burnt 200 rounds
-bought an additional 500 rounds
-bought wiley x pt1 with 2 lenses

[ghostrider]

Poodle, as someone who is not familiar with firearms, or safety for that matter, can you explain the difference between an accidental discharge and a negligent discharge?

I'm getting the impression that you believe that ANY discharge of a firearm is negligent if it's unintended.

Scott,
I know I'm not poodle, but that is a common theme among firearm enthusiasts, because one of the first rules of firearm safety is to treat every gun as if it is loaded. The belief is that if the officers in the "discharge while cleaning" example had observed that safety rule, then there would have been no "AD", and therefore it is considered negligent. There are many who believe that there is no such thing as an AD, there are only ND. I believe this line of thought is intended to place a greater responsibility on the owner/operator by suggesting that if one adheres to the basic rules of firearm safety, then there would be no such AD.

Who (IYO) would be on that list??

Ron Paul would be at the top of that list, and possibly others from the Liberty Committee. Bob Barr would be another good one.

I really think that, as long as folks can get out of bed in the morning, stop by Starbucks on the way into work, catch a football game on Sunday and take a trip to the beach without (serious) fear of dying to do it... As long as they can live their perception of a "normal life", they will be unwilling to put their life on the line. Your (and Y's) perception that 'the time is past' may well be right as far as a 'let's fix this while we still can' perspective but I doubt that is the common perception. There are always people who perceive the coming storm earlier than "the masses" do.

Subtlty is the Devil's ally. When things change slowly, people's expectations adapt. Then one day, you wake up in **** and wonder how you got there.

That’s just it. By the time people “wake up in ****” there will be little they can do about it. It’s just like Pastor Niemoeller is attributed with saying. By the time it’s gotten “bad enough” for you or me as individuals, then it’s probably too late. Much like that frog in the pot of boiling water.

To your question, I think if people could not live the life they expect "something" would happen. What??? I suppose ideally there would be visionary leaders who would pull the country together (as in the American Revolution). More likely an "every man for himself (no gender implication)" attitude would prevail and chaos would ensue. Maybe I just made your point :eek: ?

Hehe. Maybe you just did. However, like you said, “people’s expectations adapt”.

Sadly, you may well be right. I dearly hope not.

Ken

As do I.

Sadly, it’s always been that way. People do “stand up” when they get pushed to far. This is nothing new. Problem is, we just won’t stand up for our neighbors. It’s much easier to justify why they deserve what happens to them. I’m not making a call to arms, just interjecting my sense of reality :rolleyes:

[smcfalls13]

Scott,
I know I'm not poodle, but that is a common theme among firearm enthusiasts, because one of the first rules of firearm safety is to treat every gun as if it is loaded. The belief is that if the officers in the "discharge while cleaning" example had observed that safety rule, then there would have been no "AD", and therefore it is considered negligent. There are many who believe that there is no such thing as an AD, there are only ND. I believe this line of thought is intended to place a greater responsibility on the owner/operator by suggesting that if one adheres to the basic rules of firearm safety, then there would be no such AD.

Makes sense then. Hadn't thought it of that way. Pretty similar to what insurance companies call car crashes. They're not called "accidents" anymore, because apparently not a single one can be attributed to an accident. It's always human error, either someone was speeding, not paying attention, or wasn't caution enough.

[Trihonda]

[quote="poodle"]i spill my drink on somebody we can call that an accident]

I guess we're just having trouble with semantics. I agree, any unintended discharge of a firearm involves some negligence by the handler. However, I wouldn't always call it a N.D.. Your example of spilling a drink on me would also be negligent in that respect. You were at fault by not keeping control of your beverage or looking were you were going. Any accident involves some negligence, unless its an act of nature (I think I already said this).

I am thinking more from a legal standpoint, than a gun safety standpoint (us cops tend to do that from time to time). Like I said, I'm not excusing A.D.s, just not lumping them into the "negligent" legal column. Would I get in trouble having an A.D. cleaning accident? Yes! But if I were twirling my gun around "western style" in public, it would be a whole different story (probably lose my job - and rightfully so).

I'm not an expert on this subject (who ever is an expert at anything). I'm just stating my opinions. They may differ from yours, but I bet we're not too far off.

:)

[Zac]

the wait: day 1
-bought cleaner kit
-rented a g19 and burnt 200 rounds
-bought an additional 500 rounds
-bought wiley x pt1 with 2 lenses

the wait: day 2
-bought 1 year membership at the range
-bought 2 15 round clips
-bought duffel bag to caddy all my crap
-burnt 300+ rounds with a G19, G21, G22

[Zac]

the wait: day 1
-bought cleaner kit
-rented a g19 and burnt 200 rounds
-bought an additional 500 rounds
-bought wiley x pt1 with 2 lenses

the wait: day 2
-bought 1 year membership at the range
-bought 2 15 round clips
-bought duffel bag to caddy all my crap
-burnt 300+ rounds with a G19, G21, G22

the wait: day 3
-shot about 100 rounds my buddy's SW .38 SPL
-shot about 100 rounds in his G21
-sighed as i have to wait till friday

[Th232]

the wait: day 3
-shot about 100 rounds my buddy's SW .38 SPL
-shot about 100 rounds in his G21
-sighed as i have to wait till friday

Well, at least you're having fun! How are you finding the various guns?

[Zac]

Well, at least you're having fun! How are you finding the various guns?

the place i joined will rent you a gun for 5 bucks...they have at least 60 for rental so it is fun, and all my friends have guns as well lol

[Th232]

the place i joined will rent you a gun for 5 bucks...they have at least 60 for rental so it is fun, and all my friends have guns as well lol

Pretty good :cool: Leaning towards any particular model yet?

[Zac]

Pretty good :cool: Leaning towards any particular model yet?

I bought the G19 which I get Friday...a 9mm will be nice for normal shooting and home defense with HydraShok...however, I do like the G21 and a .357 magnum I was shooting had charm, despite the high bullet price.

[Trihonda]

9mm... My department uses 9mm. We've discovered the 9mm (witrh the right load) is comparable to the .357 rounds. I've never had any qualms with that. However, I wouldn't complain if we switched to .45. Either way, I'd feel safe.

[Zac]

the wait: day 1
-bought cleaner kit
-rented a g19 and burnt 200 rounds
-bought an additional 500 rounds
-bought wiley x pt1 with 2 lenses

the wait: day 2
-bought 1 year membership at the range
-bought 2 15 round clips
-bought duffel bag to caddy all my crap
-burnt 300+ rounds with a G19, G21, G22

the wait: day 3
-shot about 100 rounds my buddy's SW .38 SPL
-shot about 100 rounds in his G21
-sighed as i have to wait till friday

the wait: day 4
-convinced my best buddy to buy a membership at my range
-watched him to buy a beretta px-4 storm 9mm (awesome gun; smoother than the glock and less recoil, but i still like the g17/g19 more personally)
-burned 50 rounds on a SW 1911 (i HATED it despite all of the good reputation)...i would take a g21 any day over it for protection and general shooting
-burned 200 rounds in a g17
-worked with a few buddys on shooting
-bought another 500 rounds of ammo