I know there are plenty poeple out there that own both the knife and the trainer, so are the handles the same except for the color? And with them having pivot screws, not pivot pins, could you have a Red handled Delica/Endura 4?
Next question: do you guys think the Waved models will be interchangable in said fasion? I would love to have a Red handled Delica 4 'waved'.
Tyler!
Delica/Endura 4 handle queries
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Michael Cook
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:spyder: The trainer is the same except for the colour and blade sharpness. Buy a trainer, get a partner. Train hard. Stay safe. :spyder:
More of what does not work will not work. Robin Cooper, Rokudan; Aikikai.
There is great power in the profound observation of the obvious. John Stone, Rokudan; Aikikai
There is great power in the profound observation of the obvious. John Stone, Rokudan; Aikikai
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Harry White
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A red handle Delica would be sweet. Let us know how it works out if you decide to switch handles (and pics would be great!).
FYI -- here is a recent (Feb 13, 2006) article from outdoors-magazine.com with a very positive review of the D4:
Spyderco Delica 4 Review
FYI -- here is a recent (Feb 13, 2006) article from outdoors-magazine.com with a very positive review of the D4:
Spyderco Delica 4 Review
Users: SS Police PE, Delica 4 PE, Kopa Cocobolo, Blue Dodo SE, Yellow Pacific Salt PE, Micarta SPOT SE, Gray Calypso Jr, Temperance SE, Burgandy Jess Horn w/ZDP, UK Penknife, BB Delica 3 PE, Captain, CF Military w/BG-42, Lava, Caly3 SE, Para-Military SE, Manix CE, BB Para-Military SE, Delica 4 Wave, Ocelot CE, SpyderFly, Navigator II SE, Vagabond, D'Allara Drop Point CE, Black Assist I, Bug Set (and also: Sharpmaker, SS byrd Finch PE, Profile Set, byrd Firebyrd, Large Spyderpac, byrd Wings)
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smcfalls13
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Red has typically been reserved for trainer handles, in the same manner as firearms color coding. Having a live blade in a trainer handle could be viewed unfavorably if you were to end up in court for your blade. It may viewed as intentionally concealing a deadly weapon, as you are portraying a live blade as if it were a trainer.
I'd be wary of such a change, unless your knife is strictly for utility purposes.
Though I'd be willing to bet that Spyderco has modified the trainer construction just enough so that such a blade swap would require some significant machining of the pivot.
I wouldn't recommend it, but that's just my opinion.
I'd be wary of such a change, unless your knife is strictly for utility purposes.
Though I'd be willing to bet that Spyderco has modified the trainer construction just enough so that such a blade swap would require some significant machining of the pivot.
I wouldn't recommend it, but that's just my opinion.
:spyder: Scott :spyder:
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
Correct me if I am wrong but have i not seen Red handled Endura's in the past? FRN clip, and Red Clip-It's. and Ladybug's or Jester's(I realize that's stretching), besides isn't Blue universally considered the color that ID's something inert? :confused:
But, like you mentioned, it would be used primarily as tool.
The thought of tricking a would-be mugger into thinking i was WEILDING a non-edged knife, never crossed my mind. But IMO, those are things criminals need to worry about.
and why would someone want to carry a Waved 'tool', with a Red handle? Because everyone else's is Black(i think), without a Wave. :cool:
Tyler?
But, like you mentioned, it would be used primarily as tool.
The thought of tricking a would-be mugger into thinking i was WEILDING a non-edged knife, never crossed my mind. But IMO, those are things criminals need to worry about.
and why would someone want to carry a Waved 'tool', with a Red handle? Because everyone else's is Black(i think), without a Wave. :cool:
Tyler?
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smcfalls13
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The red handled Enduras etc, pre-date the trainer, but since the trainers came out, there haven't been red handled live blades. Burgundy is the closest we've gotten.
Perhaps I was mistaken, I'm most familiar with the Gunting's color coding, which has red for the Trainer, blue for for the CRMIPT(which should not be used as training, and is one step shy of a live blade), and black for the live blade.
I assumed it was similar across the board, but I may be wrong.
In retrospect, my last post was a little harsh, I apologize for that. But I still think Spyderco may have engineered subtle differences between the models, to discourage blade swapping, but I could be wrong about that as well.
Perhaps I was mistaken, I'm most familiar with the Gunting's color coding, which has red for the Trainer, blue for for the CRMIPT(which should not be used as training, and is one step shy of a live blade), and black for the live blade.
I assumed it was similar across the board, but I may be wrong.
In retrospect, my last post was a little harsh, I apologize for that. But I still think Spyderco may have engineered subtle differences between the models, to discourage blade swapping, but I could be wrong about that as well.
:spyder: Scott :spyder:
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
Well, I did feel a little 'shot-down' and I got defensive, but i daydream about being able to swap blades/handles whimsically, and get pretty excited when i see blade/handle variations with a screw pivot pin.
And yes, I will agree that it has become a sort of industry standard (knife ind.) designator for training blades, but there are a lot of similar indentifiers in the tactical world, Blue being one, and i think they are far from common knowledge.
Tyler!
And yes, I will agree that it has become a sort of industry standard (knife ind.) designator for training blades, but there are a lot of similar indentifiers in the tactical world, Blue being one, and i think they are far from common knowledge.
Tyler!
Tyler!,
If anything, I believe the name of a knife being carried and used in a SD situation may be brought up in court, but that is doubtable in most situations as well. If you have a good lawyer and used (or were carrying) the knife in an "appropriate" manner, it should never end up in open court anyway. Additionally, whether the knife in question meets the definition of a "dirk/dagger" or "deadly weapon" as defined by the State/Locality in which the SD situation (or carry) occurred would come into play. Also, make sure your Lawyer retains an expert that can address the legality of the knife being carried.
http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/
(This is not a plug for this guy...just an example.)
Bloodletter 2000 = Bad.
Paramilitary/Military = Not good either.
Endura/Delica = Eh...who knows.
Civilian/Matriarch = name's not bad, BUT LOOK AT THAT THING!!! (Plus the fact that every vendor lists it as a NON-utility knife design created for a "government agency." or some such.) :rolleyes:
I could not see the color of the knife handle causing in-and-of itself a "concealed weapons" tack-on. At least, not anymore than the tan handled Endura or Native being worn clipped to the pocket of a pair of Khakis.
Cameron :spyder:
My
If anything, I believe the name of a knife being carried and used in a SD situation may be brought up in court, but that is doubtable in most situations as well. If you have a good lawyer and used (or were carrying) the knife in an "appropriate" manner, it should never end up in open court anyway. Additionally, whether the knife in question meets the definition of a "dirk/dagger" or "deadly weapon" as defined by the State/Locality in which the SD situation (or carry) occurred would come into play. Also, make sure your Lawyer retains an expert that can address the legality of the knife being carried.
http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/
(This is not a plug for this guy...just an example.)
Bloodletter 2000 = Bad.
Paramilitary/Military = Not good either.
Endura/Delica = Eh...who knows.
Civilian/Matriarch = name's not bad, BUT LOOK AT THAT THING!!! (Plus the fact that every vendor lists it as a NON-utility knife design created for a "government agency." or some such.) :rolleyes:
I could not see the color of the knife handle causing in-and-of itself a "concealed weapons" tack-on. At least, not anymore than the tan handled Endura or Native being worn clipped to the pocket of a pair of Khakis.
Cameron :spyder:
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SoCal Operator
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I was wondering the same thing. With the number of different Delica/Endura variants, each with a specific handle color, wouldn't there be multiple options for customizing? Or are there differences between the trainer, wave, ZDP, etc?
@Scott: Just out of curiosity, what does CRMIPT mean with relation to the blue Guntings?
@Scott: Just out of curiosity, what does CRMIPT mean with relation to the blue Guntings?
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smcfalls13
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Close Range Medium ImPact ToolSoCal Operator wrote:@Scott: Just out of curiosity, what does CRMIPT mean with relation to the blue Guntings?
Also known as the Blue Gunting.
I'm a fairly new Gunting addict, so others that have been practitioners long may be able to answer this question better. However, as I understand it, the CRMIPT was designed for LEOs, COs, or other Security personnel who were not permitted to carry a live blade with their normal equipment(for liability reasons, some jurisdictions allow live blades, some don't) but wanted the versatility of the Gunting
Anyone who's ever had a Gunting Drone used on them knows it hurts, but the Drone is actually rounded off, and doesn't hurt as much as the live blade. The CRMIPT uses the sharp horns of the live blade, but with a dull blade like the trainer. It can be used closed in the exact same way as the live blade, with the full spectrum of pain the live blade can inflict, but there is no sharp blade, so there is limited liabilty.
The CRMIPT is no longer a "lethal" weapon like the live bladed Gunting, but a "tool" for use in pain compliance techniques. The CRMIPT was made with blue scales to reflect this fact. It can be used in a SD situation, with devastating effect(it hurts like heck), but should not be used as a trainer(it hurts a lot more than the Drone) so it can't be color coded with red.
Hope that explains it a little, like I said, some of the other guys here have been doing this for far longer than I have, and may be better qualified to answer.
:spyder: Scott :spyder:
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
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smcfalls13
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That's true, I think I'm just thinking too much into it, or making incorrect assumptions. Sorry.Tyler! wrote:And yes, I will agree that it has become a sort of industry standard (knife ind.) designator for training blades, but there are a lot of similar indentifiers in the tactical world, Blue being one, and i think they are far from common knowledge.
:spyder: Scott :spyder:
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give."
-Sir Winston Churchill-
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Native Justice
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zenheretic
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Neat idea...hope it can be done, but like I Scott, I'm guessing they blocked it internally...hmmm only two ways to find out.
The Red Herring that Scott is concerned about in a court is possible but pretty unlikely...again with a good lawyer and a reasonable explanation..."I needed a red handle as my work knife kept getting lost when dropped in the woods. I found a red handle was easier to find when dropped...now let us talk about the 38 page rap sheet documenting all the prior arrests and assualts of the alleged victim in this case..." :D
The Red Herring that Scott is concerned about in a court is possible but pretty unlikely...again with a good lawyer and a reasonable explanation..."I needed a red handle as my work knife kept getting lost when dropped in the woods. I found a red handle was easier to find when dropped...now let us talk about the 38 page rap sheet documenting all the prior arrests and assualts of the alleged victim in this case..." :D
Follow the mushin, but pay it no heed.
I guess the factor i consider is the ease of manufacturing a modular product: the idea that the only difference between the Delica 4 trainer, SE, PE, CE, Waved is the mixture to color the FRN, therefore cheaper to make.
I am pretty sure Spyderco considers these things because my Centofante 4 handle looks to be the handle from the Centofante 3, which i thought was odd because the tip of the wharncliffe dimples the inside of the spine. I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same molds from the Remote Release 1 handle as the 2.
Injection molding dies are not cheap, and it wouldn't surprise me if they looked for every opportunity to use the same dies when they can get away with it.
Tyler...
I am pretty sure Spyderco considers these things because my Centofante 4 handle looks to be the handle from the Centofante 3, which i thought was odd because the tip of the wharncliffe dimples the inside of the spine. I wouldn't be surprised if they used the same molds from the Remote Release 1 handle as the 2.
Injection molding dies are not cheap, and it wouldn't surprise me if they looked for every opportunity to use the same dies when they can get away with it.
Tyler...
Tyler,
Answer to first question. YES.
As for red associated with trainers. Around me red is more associated with SAK's. If I asked 100 people if they knew red was to be associated with trainers I would probably get 100 no's.
YMMV
<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~boxer93/red_d4.jpg" width="512" height="384" border="0" alt="">
Chris
Answer to first question. YES.
As for red associated with trainers. Around me red is more associated with SAK's. If I asked 100 people if they knew red was to be associated with trainers I would probably get 100 no's.
YMMV
<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~boxer93/red_d4.jpg" width="512" height="384" border="0" alt="">
Chris
Be Excellent to each other.