My dream Spyderco....

[Cletus]

I am not a fan of axis locks. Otherwise, big thumbs up on your idea, Charlie! Welcome to the forum!

[Red Leader]

I, too am a big fan of the bolt action lock. IMHO much superior to the axis lock. Less spring tension to release than the CBBL, too. Inflation has more or less stopped most Spyderco purchases of late, but Spydercos with a bolt action would definitely cause me to reverse that trend.

Yes. A Manix 2 or XL with the bolt lock would be an upgrade over the CBBL, for 3 reasons. One, less tension (a common complaint, and a valid one IMO). Two, the bolt action mechanism not protruding outside from the flat of the knife, thereby making it less susceptible to damage. And three, no plastic bits to worry about cracking and breaking. Technically a fourth as well, in that the bolt lock I think is stronger than the CBBL beacuse it doesn’t rely on just those two little screws at the front of a CBBL locking block to keep it all together. If those screws get loose or shear, the CBBL lock comes apart. Since these knives are not designed for constant stresses that would kill a CBBL I’m not holding it against the knife, but if all things are equal I’m taking the stronger knife.

Wish they would put the bolt lock in more models.

One more reason for the bolt action is that it is more compatible with slimmer or less tall blades than tall leaf blades like those on Manix type knives. My Gerber bolt action fillet is a prime example of this.

Great point. The Manix, while a phenomenal knife, is a tall knife. I doesn't bother me in that I don't keep other things in my pockets so I don't find myself needing to reach past it, but I know for some people, the width it takes up in the pocket steers them away from it.

[Georgiadude]

I certainly like all the responces, I certainly am very happy with my two Native five Spydies with the frn lightweight scales, both in 15V. My Manix 2 with the blade release it has (sorry if I used the wrong brand name for it) is very easy to open versus the spine lock on the Native 5. One thing is for sure, when the blade locks into the open position, it does it with authority and give the owner big confidence in the relibility of the knife.
Charlie

[olywa]

Anyone have a good pic of the bolt action lock they could share? I don't know that I've ever seen a Spydie with that action.

[Red Leader]

I *think* it only came on the Sage 3?

I wonder if Sal could elaborate on Spyderco's history/use of the bolt action lock and if there could be plans to do anything more with it? The one time I used one, I liked it better than any CBBL (even though both are great), so I'm curious if there is any hesitation or barrier for using one further.

[Red Leader]

From the catalog…



Here is a review, showing the internals:

https://morethanjustsurviving.com/spyde ... fe-review/


Imagine in the Native came with one!

[Red Leader]

For some additional information...



BladeHQ did a lock strength test several years ago, mainly with Spydercos...pretty cool. The link above goes straight to the Sage 3's bolt lock test. In short, it is immensely strong, and the strongest lock of this particular test. While the test isn't perfect and has several uncontrolled variables, it accurately demonstrates why the bolt lock appears to be stronger than the CBBL, whose strength rests entirely upon the front two locking block screws, as shown here:



Perhaps most impressive was that the bolt lock was still completely fuctional after the highest-tension failure of of the bunch. Many did not come out unscathed...

While some may argue this is all theoretical, as nobody should be making use of either lock's full strength, I still appreciate the engineering of the bolt lock, and would like to see it on more Spydercos.

The video also highlights the weakness of the lockback in the Endura/Endela/Delica family - there is not enough meat around the pivot of the blade where the lock is to keep if from shearing off in testing. Which is also why a Demko-style stop pin in this particular family of knives would likely make no difference to lock strength. In practice and in reality, it is likely a moot point, as I haven't really ever heard of one failing in use. Still, the nerd in me can really appreciate strength in design.

I'm sure Spyderco runs their own internal 'testing-to-failure' on locks, but we are not privy to them. We'll have to make do with tests like these, and I'm grateful for them.

[skeeg11]

I, too am a big fan of the bolt action lock. IMHO much superior to the axis lock. Less spring tension to release than the CBBL, too. Inflation has more or less stopped most Spyderco purchases of late, but Spydercos with a bolt action would definitely cause me to reverse that trend.

Yes. A Manix 2 or XL with the bolt lock would be an upgrade over the CBBL, for 3 reasons. One, less tension (a common complaint, and a valid one IMO). Two, the bolt action mechanism not protruding outside from the flat of the knife, thereby making it less susceptible to damage. And three, no plastic bits to worry about cracking and breaking. Technically a fourth as well, in that the bolt lock I think is stronger than the CBBL beacuse it doesn’t rely on just those two little screws at the front of a CBBL locking block to keep it all together. If those screws get loose or shear, the CBBL lock comes apart. Since these knives are not designed for constant stresses that would kill a CBBL I’m not holding it against the knife, but if all things are equal I’m taking the stronger knife.

Wish they would put the bolt lock in more models.

One more reason for the bolt action is that it is more compatible with slimmer or less tall blades than tall leaf blades like those on Manix type knives. My Gerber bolt action fillet is a prime example of this.

Great point. The Manix, while a phenomenal knife, is a tall knife. I doesn't bother me in that I don't keep other things in my pockets so I don't find myself needing to reach past it, but I know for some people, the width it takes up in the pocket steers them away from it.

Dunno about other people, but a bolt action J D Smith checks a lot of boxes for me. Throw in a high hollow grind and we're good to go.

[Wartstein]

..
The video also highlights the weakness of the lockback in the Endura/Endela/Delica family - there is not enough meat around the pivot of the blade where the lock is to keep if from shearing off in testing. Which is also why a Demko-style stop pin in this particular family of knives would likely make no difference to lock strength. In practice and in reality, it is likely a moot point, as I haven't really ever heard of one failing in use. Still, the nerd in me can really appreciate strength in design.
..

I freely admit that I am a backlock guy and the Endura family offers my favorite folders of all brands and all time...still I am not here to defend those models and even believe that the pivot area is not the strongest.

Still: I don´t think what they show in the vid proves that the pivot area would be "weak"? At least the data for that is missing:
- The blade broke before the lock could fail, but unlike with all the actual failures of other locktypes they unfortunately did not give us the weight/ force that was needed to break the Delica blade.
- So it is unclear if rather the blade was "weak" or the lock very strong...(so that the blade had to break before the lock could fail, while with other locktypes the lock would have failed before the blade could break)
- I am also still not sure if the loop over the handle did not prevent the lockbar of the backlock to move and so the lock could not disengage before the blade broke...? (Though it looks like as if the loop sits behind the lockbar pivot when the blade snaps, which would mean that the lockbar could actually have moved...)

[Red Leader]

..
The video also highlights the weakness of the lockback in the Endura/Endela/Delica family - there is not enough meat around the pivot of the blade where the lock is to keep if from shearing off in testing. Which is also why a Demko-style stop pin in this particular family of knives would likely make no difference to lock strength. In practice and in reality, it is likely a moot point, as I haven't really ever heard of one failing in use. Still, the nerd in me can really appreciate strength in design.
..

I freely admit that I am a backlock guy and the Endura family offers my favorite folders of all brands and all time...still I am not here to defend those models and even believe that the pivot area is not the strongest.

Still: I don´t think what they show in the vid proves that the pivot area would be "weak"? At least the data for that is missing:
- The blade broke before the lock could fail, but unlike with all the actual failures of other locktypes they unfortunately did not give us the weight/ force that was needed to break the Delica blade.
- So it is unclear if rather the blade was "weak" or the lock very strong...(so that the blade had to break before the lock could fail, while with other locktypes the lock would have failed before the blade could break)
- I am also still not sure if the loop over the handle did not prevent the lockbar of the backlock to move and so the lock could not disengage before the blade broke...? (Though it looks like as if the loop sits behind the lockbar pivot when the blade snaps, which would mean that the lockbar could actually have moved...)

Yeah, I mean nowhere does the limitations of that test show up better than in those lockbacks. The fulcrum point (distance between the pivot and the pull cable) is uncontrolled, as is the angle of the knife. However, take one apart and its not hard to see how that is the fail point, with a very small amount of material and the lock notch in the blade creating a natural stress riser.


My first Spyderco ever was an Endura, a gift. There is a lot of sentimentality with the lockback lineup for me. Still, we can acknowledge a couple things - with the pivot weakness and some of the lock rock inherent in this particular design, knife design and technology has continued to advance and surpass some of these older designs (mechanically speaking), and, the Endura family is an ergonomic masterpiece and not every knife has to be herculean in strength.

[Wartstein]

...
My first Spyderco ever was an Endura, a gift. There is a lot of sentimentality with the lockback lineup for me. Still, we can acknowledge a couple things - with the pivot weakness and some of the lock rock inherent in this particular design, knife design and technology has continued to advance and surpass some of these older designs (mechanically speaking), and, the Endura family is an ergonomic masterpiece and not every knife has to be herculean in strength.

Sure, both true:
Just by construction the Endura pivot area is not the strongest and the Seki FRNs tend to have more lock rock than for example the Golden backlocks in my experience too!

Luckily it just happens to be the case that a bit lock rock never bothered me personally (don't even notice it anymore) and no Endura ever broke even in the hardest use I ever do with folders (and that's comparably pretty "hard", including for example some lighter batoning).

So just for me in real life use the Endura is perfect.

/ In the test it would have been interesting if they gave us the weight/force that was needed to break the Delica blade:

... Perhaps it was really high, which would rather mean that the backlock is very strong (or was prevented to open by the setup of the test)

...Perhaps it was low, which would rather speak for a relative pivot weakness of the Delica...

[apollo]

...
My first Spyderco ever was an Endura, a gift. There is a lot of sentimentality with the lockback lineup for me. Still, we can acknowledge a couple things - with the pivot weakness and some of the lock rock inherent in this particular design, knife design and technology has continued to advance and surpass some of these older designs (mechanically speaking), and, the Endura family is an ergonomic masterpiece and not every knife has to be herculean in strength.

Sure, both true:
Just by construction the Endura pivot area is not the strongest and the Seki FRNs tend to have more lock rock than for example the Golden backlocks in my experience too!

Luckily it just happens to be the case that a bit lock rock never bothered me personally (don't even notice it anymore) and no Endura ever broke even in the hardest use I ever do with folders (and that's comparably pretty "hard", including for example some lighter batoning).

So just for me in real life use the Endura is perfect.

/ In the test it would have been interesting if they gave us the weight/force that was needed to break the Delica blade:

... Perhaps it was really high, which would rather mean that the backlock is very strong (or was prevented to open by the setup of the test)

...Perhaps it was low, which would rather speak for a relative pivot weakness of the Delica...

Just want to mention i Totally agree on the seki knives having more lock rock then the golden ones.
My old Manixes , Chinooks and even my newer native 5’s have zero lockrock while my endela i was given as a gift from the Amsterdam meet this year does indeed have some.

[Red Leader]

Right, if anything it is a bit of a love-fest for the Seki knives, with the hope that they continue to be invested in and improved upon so they can stay modern and relevant.

I’ve seen many statements where someone compares the Endura/Endela/Delica to a modern $25-$50 imported lockback, and the import had no lock rock as compared to the Seki line, so it does two things: it answers the question of it if can be done, and with minimal investment. The second thing it does is to challenge the maker of these knives to step up to the next level. It sounds like Spyderco and the maker have a wonderful relationship, and that the maker has gone through some pretty hard times in the recent years. Also, there may be some natural language and culture barriers that may make the CQI process more cumbersome. But from knowing Spyderco fans, we are not going anywhere - we believe in all parties involved and want them to do well, while simultaneously pushing for the best quality and tolerances possible to keep the companies involved still revelant. Every $30 lockback with no lock rock that comes out challenges that status quo even further.


My own Endura? After owning for 15 years, the lock kept loosening up, and the bottom of the lock was hitting a nub in the cutout, keeping it from going down further and locking up tighter. After grinding that nub down just a skosh, I am back to a really tight lockup after it settles in, to where I have no lock rock. I don’t carry the knife as it was a gift from a Spyderco employee and my first edc knife, but it has kept my interest in this line alive, even though I have other knives that I consider better.


Can you imagine a redesigned Seki line with a more robust lock and also utilizing a Triad style stop pin + floating lock bar (the part that most people don’t realize about the design)? The handle in that area would get thicker (taller) but that would be a necessity for a stronger lock. A solution in search of a problem?

I know it is asking the world, but it is more of a 60,000ft view years down the road., and the bigger priority is the lock rock. I think it is more in the design than the execution, seeing as how both Seki and Moki both struggle with it.

[Wartstein]

Right, if anything it is a bit of a love-fest for the Seki knives, with the hope that they continue to be invested in and improved upon so they can stay modern and relevant.

I’ve seen many statements where someone compares the Endura/Endela/Delica to a modern $25-$50 imported lockback, and the import had no lock rock as compared to the Seki line, so it does two things: it answers the question of it if can be done, and with minimal investment. The second thing it does is to challenge the maker of these knives to step up to the next level. It sounds like Spyderco and the maker have a wonderful relationship, and that the maker has gone through some pretty hard times in the recent years. Also, there may be some natural language and culture barriers that may make the CQI process more cumbersome. But from knowing Spyderco fans, we are not going anywhere - we believe in all parties involved and want them to do well, while simultaneously pushing for the best quality and tolerances possible to keep the companies involved still revelant. Every $30 lockback with no lock rock that comes out challenges that status quo even further.


My own Endura? After owning for 15 years, the lock kept loosening up, and the bottom of the lock was hitting a nub in the cutout, keeping it from going down further and locking up tighter. After grinding that nub down just a skosh, I am back to a really tight lockup after it settles in, to where I have no lock rock. I don’t carry the knife as it was a gift from a Spyderco employee and my first edc knife, but it has kept my interest in this line alive, even though I have other knives that I consider better.


Can you imagine a redesigned Seki line with a more robust lock and also utilizing a Triad style stop pin + floating lock bar (the part that most people don’t realize about the design)? The handle in that area would get thicker (taller) but that would be a necessity for a stronger lock. A solution in search of a problem?

I know it is asking the world, but it is more of a 60,000ft view years down the road., and the bigger priority is the lock rock. I think it is more in the design than the execution, seeing as how both Seki and Moki both struggle with it.

I have not been trying a non-Spyderco backlock knife for quite some years now, but of course I believe you that there are such out there with no lock rock! (Or just less - ? Don´t know, but it seems to me one can deliberately "force" lock rock in pretty much every traditional backlock without a stop pin by for example pressing the edge on a hard surface...?)

To me bringing the Seki backlocks up to the Golden backlock level would not hurt of course (in my experience for example the usual Native backlock feels more solid than the usual Seki backlock).
I don´t think I personally would need a Triad style lock though in the Endura family (and I´d like to stick that line with the current handle thinness)... but that´s just me, as said for whatever reason the typical Seki lock rock never bothered me, but I fully respect that it does others and sure generally less lock rock would just feel like "higher quality" for many people.

/ Just so that I understand: You say you "never carry" your Endura, but its lock still "kept loosening up"?
How did this happen then (honest question)?
Curious how my own Endura backlocks will do over a long time and if / how much they might loose up... I use Enduras a lot and also "harder", but then got my first one like only seven years ago and switch between quite some pieces, so each single one has actually not seen THAT much use till now...

[Red Leader]

/ Just so that I understand: You say you "never carry" your Endura, but its lock still "kept loosening up"?
How did this happen then (honest question)?
Curious how my own Endura backlocks will do over a long time and if / how much they might loose up... I use Enduras a lot and also "harder", but then got my first one like only seven years ago and switch between quite some pieces, so each single one has actually not seen THAT much use till now...

I carried it for years, as it was my only pocket knife for at least 10 years, and I used it everywhere, all the time. So over that time it loosened up a bit in the lock. Of course, it wasn't until I became 'enlightened' that I knew it had lock rock, double-edged sword that is! I told myself if I was able to carry it for 10 years and not lose it, I would get a new one to replace it. This one is a bit special as it has an engraving on the blade from a Spyderco employee, so I no longer carry it due to sentimental value. But every now and then I still bring it out and play around with it. It got looser from carrying it for a decade or so, and it doesn't self-tighten, so-to-speak. But modifying it a bit did tighten it back up, just in case I ever wanted to use it. But right now, the pocket clip is off and I'm using it on the Crucible PM2, and I don't do so well with holding onto knives without clips, so... :)

[vivi]

It's wild how much the lock rock experience differs. My old C95 Manix folders have as much rock as any other lockback I own.

custom scales have never fixed it for me unfortunately:



I don't have any Spydies in lockback form that I can do this test to and not feel the lock and blade wiggling like that. It doesn't take leaning on it with all my weight on a cutting board or anything.

None of my spydies can pass that simple test of pinching the blade between two fingers and wiggling the handle with my other hand, without displaying lock rock. Seki, China, Golden - you name it.

Here's another test. Crank your volume.

C95 heavily used
C95 gently used
C95 barely used at all
M4 DLC Chief used
Police 3 hard use
Police 3 like new
Pacific Salt 1 new old stock from one of the last runs they made



So the barely used Police is somehow a little worse than the one with 15 years of hard use.

The two black scaled C95's are as bad as any seki knife I've handled.

The green g10 C95 and Chief are tighter feeling.

But the tightest of them all? A linerless Pacific from Seki.

Yes the C95's are old, but all 12 Chiefs I've owned (S30V g10, bd1n FRN, M4, M4 DLC, Rex45, 4V - multiples of many of these) have had lock rock and those are modern.

Honestly what bugs me more than the lock rock itself, is how many people report owning spydercos with none,but somehow out of the 500-1,000 spyderco lockbacks I've handled, the only one I've found without any lock rock is the chap I checked out last time I visited SMKW.

[Wartstein]

It's wild how much the lock rock experience differs. My old C95 Manix folders have as much rock as any other lockback I own.

custom scales have never fixed it for me unfortunately:



I don't have any Spydies in lockback form that I can do this test to and not feel the lock and blade wiggling like that. It doesn't take leaning on it with all my weight on a cutting board or anything.

None of my spydies can pass that simple test of pinching the blade between two fingers and wiggling the handle with my other hand, without displaying lock rock. Seki, China, Golden - you name it.

Here's another test. Crank your volume.

C95 heavily used
C95 gently used
C95 barely used at all
M4 DLC Chief used
Police 3 hard use
Police 3 like new
Pacific Salt 1 new old stock from one of the last runs they made



So the barely used Police is somehow a little worse than the one with 15 years of hard use.

The two black scaled C95's are as bad as any seki knife I've handled.

The green g10 C95 and Chief are tighter feeling.

But the tightest of them all? A linerless Pacific from Seki.

Yes the C95's are old, but all 12 Chiefs I've owned (S30V g10, bd1n FRN, M4, M4 DLC, Rex45, 4V - multiples of many of these) have had lock rock and those are modern.

Honestly what bugs me more than the lock rock itself, is how many people report owning spydercos with none,but somehow out of the 500-1,000 spyderco lockbacks I've handled, the only one I've found without any lock rock is the chap I checked out last time I visited SMKW.

As you know pretty my experience too (though admittedly with MUCH lower sample sizes, I guess around 20 Seki -and 5 Golden backlocks)!

I mostly don´t notice lockrock (anymore...?) and it does not bother me in the slightest, but it sure is still there with each Spyderco backlock I´ve tried except the Chaparral..
As said, at least when pressing the blade on a cutting board it is hard to believe that people would not feel it a bit - ?

I found though that the few Golden backlocks I had (all Native family) felt noticeably more solid and had less up and down play than the usual Seki backlock.

/ If lock rock gets worse over time and use is something I never paid attention to, can´t really weigh in on this from my own experience.

[olywa]

I've always been a little leery of the nub on the Delica/Endura FRN backspacers. I've replaced a few with Copper or TI backspacers from Flytanium and noticed that the minimal lock rock they had was now gone. I think the Flytanium backspacers have a minimal deviation in geometry as well. The backsprings are a bit stronger than with the stock backspacers. I've noticed this whether re-using the stock FRN scales or replacing them with aftermarket micarta scales.