6" Mule discussion.

[Mad Mac]

Sign me up for a Draft Mule.

AI Overview: A large mule, often called a Draft Mule, is bred from large draft horse mares and mammoth jackstock (large donkeys) for immense size, strength, and endurance... used historically for heavy farm work and freight...

[InThePocket]

For a kitchen Mule, I think spine thickness around 2mm depending on the width of the blade. We have a kiritsuke and a nakiri at 2mm that are excellent cutters - kiritsuke is slightly convexed and nakiri appears to be full flat ground. My Henckels Zwilling Pro chef is spec'd at 2mm but starts off a little thicker and feels more like a chopper. The chef and nakiri have a distal taper, which I like, but the blade profile of the kiritsuke gives it a nice detail-oriented tip even without the taper.

Personally I would be interested in trying something like the Mule (XL) profile with a reoriented handle - a culinary take on the Mule rather than an entirely new design. The shape and length seem like they have potential to be really flexible in the kitchen.

[FirstPenguin]

Hi FirstPenguin,

Welcome to our forum.

I would like to hear more about:

1) How you can tell the sie of the carbides in kitchen knives?
2) The concept of different shapes and how to do that?
3) What thickness are you thinking?

sal

Hi Sal,

Thanks! To answer your questions:

1) I can tell by how it feels when I'm cutting things (often tomatoes,) though I'm limited to a relative sense of "Big" vs. "Not Big.". For example, simple carbon steels have a different feel compared to something like SLD/D2 or 440C. Thanks to geeking out over things like the Science of Sharp and the work of Dr. Thomas and Verhoeven, I know that it's most likely these sensations are due to the carbides. I'm afraid that at present I lack the vocabulary to describe it more precisely.

2) The shape that a kitchen Mule should be is an interesting thought experiment. I think that it's possible to put something together that might be described as a short gyuto while still being visually recognizable as a Mule knife. I've got some time in the shop tomorrow afternoon, I'll play around with the idea a bit and see if I can come up with a profile that works. Let me know if you'd be interested in seeing it.

3) A thickness of 2-3mm above the heel is a good starting point, but I'd have to balance it out with other design choices. I suspect that for something like what i'm thinking of it would be closer to 2.24-2.8mm, depending on how long it turns out to be.

Thanks again for the warm welcome!

[sal]

Thanx FirstPenguin,

Thanx for sharing. Hope you hang around to assist in our R&D Mule projects,

sal

[InThePocket]

I don't know if this will be of any interest to anybody here, but I did a Photoshop mockup to get a sense of how the standard Mule handle would work with a few culinary blade shapes. I like the Mule handle a lot and like the idea of using existing scales. I think the 5" utility knife in particular could also serve well outside of the kitchen.

[Ramonade]

I wonder if a "Kitchen Knife type Mule" would be an R&D development project would be effective?

sal

Hi Sal,

As someone who makes kitchen knives I would find this very interesting. There's been quite the progression of chef knife enthusiast -> handle making -> knife making/smithing in the last few years and a kitchen Mule would certainly be appreciated by the community. A quick look at some of the VG10 handle-less blades on AE is a good indication of what's available presently (they're all way too thick.) I can only echo other users' comments that while I pull my Mules out occasionally, I use my kitchen knives almost every day.

I also think that there would be some non-trivial differences between the current, EDC-centric Mule project and a kitchen knife variant.

[..]

To answer sal and piggyback of your reply. I used my Mules to cook for the past year or 2 (MagnaCut then other steels like RWL34 and SUS410). But the geometry and size slow down the process. Since I'm in love with the Mule team handle shape, I made myself my "perfect" kitchen knife.

I just had to move things around a bit to lengthen the tang, and now my only real kitchen knife does it all for me . Still 3mm blade stock but really, really high blade with an almost full flat grind. And a simple carbon steel (XC75/1075).

[InThePocket]

I wonder if a "Kitchen Knife type Mule" would be an R&D development project would be effective?

sal

Hi Sal,

As someone who makes kitchen knives I would find this very interesting. There's been quite the progression of chef knife enthusiast -> handle making -> knife making/smithing in the last few years and a kitchen Mule would certainly be appreciated by the community. A quick look at some of the VG10 handle-less blades on AE is a good indication of what's available presently (they're all way too thick.) I can only echo other users' comments that while I pull my Mules out occasionally, I use my kitchen knives almost every day.

I also think that there would be some non-trivial differences between the current, EDC-centric Mule project and a kitchen knife variant.

[..]

To answer sal and piggyback of your reply. I used my Mules to cook for the past year or 2 (MagnaCut then other steels like RWL34 and SUS410). But the geometry and size slow down the process. Since I'm in love with the Mule team handle shape, I made myself my "perfect" kitchen knife.

I just had to move things around a bit to lengthen the tang, and now my only real kitchen knife does it all for me . Still 3mm blade stock but really, really high blade with an almost full flat grind. And a simple carbon steel (XC75/1075).

Wow, I love this design.

[Self Taught]

I've snapped a pd1 mule before on a 2x4 so a thicker stock would be pretty nice if theres going to be a larger mule. Iv'e batoned my 3/16 province bowie cross grain on a 4 inch thick pine tree and couldn't break it. (Was drunk). My two cents is 3/16 thickness with a flat grind to keep it slicey. Larger handle would be awesome too

[Self Taught]

I'll buy one regardless of thicker vs thinner stock. I have use for both

[FirstPenguin]

Thanx FirstPenguin,

Thanx for sharing. Hope you hang around to assist in our R&D Mule projects,

sal

Hi Sal,

I'd be happy to help out. One of my busy seasons is rapidly approaching but I'll do my best to check in.

[FirstPenguin]

I don't know if this will be of any interest to anybody here, but I did a Photoshop mockup to get a sense of how the standard Mule handle would work with a few culinary blade shapes. I like the Mule handle a lot and like the idea of using existing scales. I think the 5" utility knife in particular could also serve well outside of the kitchen.

This is great, I was playing around with this a bit myself this evening (didn't have time to make a prototype at the shop today.)

One thing that I keep running into with the handle, and also the choil/bolster, is how to accommodate for a pinch grip. This is the way that I commonly hold my kitchen tools and that's just not part of the design considerations right now. Also, moving the palm swell forward a bit might make it easier to use both grip styles, although this would mean that handle scales wouldn't be interchangeable anymore.

[FirstPenguin]

To answer sal and piggyback of your reply. I used my Mules to cook for the past year or 2 (MagnaCut then other steels like RWL34 and SUS410). But the geometry and size slow down the process. Since I'm in love with the Mule team handle shape, I made myself my "perfect" kitchen knife.

I just had to move things around a bit to lengthen the tang, and now my only real kitchen knife does it all for me . Still 3mm blade stock but really, really high blade with an almost full flat grind. And a simple carbon steel (XC75/1075).

Wow, that looks great! Is that some differential hardening I see there?

I'm glad that there are so many people who are thinking about this. I wonder if it's worth breaking off into a new thread at some point.

[Jeb]

I don't know if this will be of any interest to anybody here, but I did a Photoshop mockup to get a sense of how the standard Mule handle would work with a few culinary blade shapes. I like the Mule handle a lot and like the idea of using existing scales. I think the 5" utility knife in particular could also serve well outside of the kitchen.

I really like your idea of the bigger Mules. I could use them all.

[bob-atlatl]

Thanks InThePocket for your images, I borrowed them and adjusted one for 6" blade, fwiw

[Ramonade]

To answer sal and piggyback of your reply. I used my Mules to cook for the past year or 2 (MagnaCut then other steels like RWL34 and SUS410). But the geometry and size slow down the process. Since I'm in love with the Mule team handle shape, I made myself my "perfect" kitchen knife.

I just had to move things around a bit to lengthen the tang, and now my only real kitchen knife does it all for me . Still 3mm blade stock but really, really high blade with an almost full flat grind. And a simple carbon steel (XC75/1075).

Wow, that looks great! Is that some differential hardening I see there?

I'm glad that there are so many people who are thinking about this. I wonder if it's worth breaking off into a new thread at some point.

That's right ! It was more of an attempt at "style points" for myself since 1075 is fine by itself, and the stress of the differential heat treat can sometimes mess-up the blade. But here's it just turned out perfect, except for the fact I did not know how fibrous this steel is, Learned a lot about steel matrix trying to get a good revelation lol.

I'll bring it to the Amsterdam Meet, even if the Mule Team Army is not the most represented there ! And it's more of my take as what I'd like as a kitchen knife, anything else could be good too, the Bunka looks more like a modified mule than my knife

[Mk-211]

Thanks InThePocket for your images, I borrowed them and adjusted one for 6" blade, fwiw

That's a great design! Exactly how I see a 6" mule, when do they ship?!

[InThePocket]

This is great, I was playing around with this a bit myself this evening (didn't have time to make a prototype at the shop today.)

One thing that I keep running into with the handle, and also the choil/bolster, is how to accommodate for a pinch grip. This is the way that I commonly hold my kitchen tools and that's just not part of the design considerations right now. Also, moving the palm swell forward a bit might make it easier to use both grip styles, although this would mean that handle scales wouldn't be interchangeable anymore.

Good point, I use a pinch grip too. I think a deep bevel on the edge of the scales below the blade could make it work. I have a spare set of the standard black ones from Halpern that I can try sanding down. Their flat G10 scales also might work better for a pinch grip without modification, but I haven't tried those.

I really like your idea of the bigger Mules. I could use them all.

Thanks... me too! Especially now that my son is also getting into cooking. It's fun to share knife talk with him.

[bob-atlatl]

Also use pinch grip for slice/dice in the kitchen.
So cut out scallops near the 3DP scales front end, like:

[InThePocket]

Also use pinch grip for slice/dice in the kitchen.
So cut out scallops near the 3DP scales front end, like:

Nice, that's not too far off from what I was thinking of.

[Tx_jrod]

Hi Sal,

I love the idea of an XL Mule, especially what Tim mentioned a while back about the handle being able to accept the existing handles and using the fourth hole as a lanyard hole.

I currently use my HIC the most—it’s basically a permanent fixture on my BBQ apron.

A 6” version would definitely see real use in the kitchen, and depending on thickness, it would likely replace my current camp knife as well. That size would probably get more overall utilization than the current Mules, since I typically have a folder in my pocket when I’m in that blade-length range.

I’ve also always gravitated toward larger fixed blades in general—more along the lines of Ka-BARs and SOGs—so an XL Mule really fits how I tend to use fixed blades.