CR13MoV it's not what I thought.

[chronovore]

At this point, I'm interested in Spyderco's take on 14C28N, heat-treat wise. I'm betting y'all can come up with a dynamite protocol and make some of the best 14C28N anyone's ever seen. I'm also thinking it could be very popular.

Companies have run it different ways but 14C28N really seems to shine around 60 HRC.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Does this mean Spyderco can make a 14C28N folder with a 3.5 inch long blade 3.0 mm thick and it will outcut many other knives, and can be serrated or plain edged?

[chronovore]

Does this mean Spyderco can make a 14C28N folder with a 3.5 inch long blade 3.0 mm thick and it will outcut many other knives, and can be serrated or plain edged?

It would hold a nicer edge than 8Cr13MoV. It would be more stainless than 8Cr13MoV, VG-10, or a lot of other steels (similar to BD1N). It would be among the toughest stainless used by Spyderco too. It offers good edge stability and is easy to work with, both in terms of maintenance at home and in manufacturing abroad. I've never tried it with serrations but why not?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Does this mean Spyderco can make a 14C28N folder with a 3.5 inch long blade 3.0 mm thick and it will outcut many other knives, and can be serrated or plain edged?

It would hold a nicer edge than 8Cr13MoV. It would be more stainless than 8Cr13MoV, VG-10, or a lot of other steels (similar to BD1N). It would be among the toughest stainless used by Spyderco too. It offers good edge stability and is easy to work with, both in terms of maintenance at home and in manufacturing abroad. I've never tried it with serrations but why not?

I absolutely love this! Wow. Sal, sir, are you seeing this? :)

[sal]

I'm seeing it. Maybe we'll try a Mule after 19C?

sal

[Steeltoez83]

I'm currently checking out a sample of 14C at 64 hrc.

[sal]

Hi Steeltoez,

Looking forward to what you come up with. Lotsa talk 'bout 14c, but I haven't found much test results. I'll be having our R&D do some testing.

sal

[Steeltoez83]

Hi Sal

My original plan was to compare that 14C sample against the vg xeos and the 19C mules after the 19C was released. The out of box edge did 250 units of work which if I remember falls in line with my spy27 results.

[abbazaba]

Hi Steeltoez,

Looking forward to what you come up with. Lotsa talk 'bout 14c, but I haven't found much test results. I'll be having our R&D do some testing.

sal

Sandvik 14c28n has been a great budget steel IMO, and my preference over D2 and 8cr. Most of my experience with 14c was from older Kershaws and Moras, and I'm glad to see it coming back in popularity for budget folders.

It takes a really nice thin edge and touches up easily. Great beginner steel. I think I remember hearing it was originally developed for razor blades? Larrin has it pretty far down in edge retention though.

[pinchyfisher]

Wouldn't AEB-L fall in line very similarly with 14C28N in pretty much all characteristics?

I picked up an AEB-L mule back when they came out and was very happy with the performance. Don't get much use from fixies but would be equally happy with it as a budget steel if cost is comparable. Bonus points for already having a heat treat.

[Red Leader]

Wouldn't AEB-L fall in line very similarly with 14C28N in pretty much all characteristics?

I picked up an AEB-L mule back when they came out and was very happy with the performance. Don't get much use from fixies but would be equally happy with it as a budget steel if cost is comparable. Bonus points for already having a heat treat.

Here is a quote from Larrin on his thoughts between AEB-L and 14C28N:

"14C28N is essentially AEB-L (or perhaps more accurately Sandvik 13C26), but with improved corrosion resistance. Despite the improved corrosion resistance, it is still capable of similar hardness (above 62 with cryo), and in CATRA testing it even had slightly improved edge retention."

Seems like 14C is a slightly improved version of AEB-L, but yes they are very, very close.

Very curious (and thankful) for whatever Spyderco might try with regard to testing this steel. I think if BD1-N was tougher, we wouldn't have a reason, but someone like me that uses their knives as tools in the field can really appreciate the added toughness of a steel like 14C. If they choose to do a mule, I'd put my money where my mouth is and pick one up. Really interested in Spyderco's optimization of the steel.

[zhyla]

I always say the same thing in these 8Cr replacement discussions: why not D2. I know it's as old as the sun but TONS of budget knives use it and it works just great IME. Slightly less corrosion resistant than 8Cr, but way better edge retention. There's a reason it's essentially *the* budget steel in Chinese production: it's good enough and it's cheap to produce.

[chronovore]

Seems like 14C is a slightly improved version of AEB-L, but yes they are very, very close.

Very curious (and thankful) for whatever Spyderco might try with regard to testing this steel. I think if BD1-N was tougher, we wouldn't have a reason, but someone like me that uses their knives as tools in the field can really appreciate the added toughness of a steel like 14C. If they choose to do a mule, I'd put my money where my mouth is and pick one up. Really interested in Spyderco's optimization of the steel.

Coincidentally, 14C28N was created by Sandvik for Kershaw back in the day. The story goes that people liked their 13C26 (analogous to AEB-L) but that had been requesting more corrosion resistance. However much Kershaw's fondness for bead-blasted finishes was actually driving such requests, they pursued it. The formula was slightly tweaked with the addition of nitrogen being the major factor.

This has been done with a few other steels, such as BD1 to BD1N, or 1.4116 to Nitro-B.

[chronovore]

I always say the same thing in these 8Cr replacement discussions: why not D2. I know it's as old as the sun but TONS of budget knives use it and it works just great IME. Slightly less corrosion resistant than 8Cr, but way better edge retention. There's a reason it's essentially *the* budget steel in Chinese production: it's good enough and it's cheap to produce.

It was "the" essential budget steel for years and I personally prefer it to 8Cr13MoV but thankfully, a lot of the better-known manufacturers have been moving past it for a while now. The most common steels I see in new quality budget knives now tend to be 9Cr18MoV, 10Cr15CoMoV, Nitro-V, 14C28N, and 154CM.

There are a few different reasons that D2 isn't clearly better. First is that there have been specific issues with Chinese D2. I should qualify that some companies were generally better than others, such as Petrified Fish. However, performance testing on Chinese D2 in general was both all over the map and rarely on par with expectations for that steel. (For instance, you wouldn't expect D2 to fall short of 14C28N on edge testing but it often did on Chinese knives.) Speculation on why this is ranges from variations in the vanadium content to issues or sensitivity in heat treatment. If the latter was the major factor, the apparent friendliness and ease of working 14C28N may be offering some hidden user-side advantages over D2.

The other and more straightforward reasons are corrosion resistance and toughness. D2 has worse corrosion resistance and lower toughness versus 8Cr13MoV, with 14C28N being a major step up from 8Cr13MoV in those categories. D2 is still semi-stainless but the way I see it, that's a legitimate trade-off and we should ask what we get in that trade. If it's not cutting circles around 14C28N, then why bother? Worse, a lot of Chinese companies have also started using 154CM on budget knives, which more reliably provides that increase in edge retention without taking the hit on corrosion resistance.

[TimButterfield]

Here is a quote from Larrin on his thoughts between AEB-L and 14C28N:

"14C28N is essentially AEB-L (or perhaps more accurately Sandvik 13C26), but with improved corrosion resistance. Despite the improved corrosion resistance, it is still capable of similar hardness (above 62 with cryo), and in CATRA testing it even had slightly improved edge retention."

There was a part of that quote that popped out for me, "with cryo". Is this commonly used for any existing Spyerco models? A heat treat is understandable, but I wasn't sure how prevalent a cryo treatment was. I would have guessed it to be much more rare. And, if without cryo, does it still test as well?

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I read a website where a knife reviewer said some Chinese knives listed as D2 are 8Cr13MoV.

But I am very impressed at some of the quality offerings.

[Red Leader]

I wonder if Spyderco can try with and without cryo and at different hardnesses to strike a nice balance between edge retention and toughness. If they can get it up to or just past BD1-N for wear resistance but still end up with more toughness, I think we will have a winner on our hands.

[BeggarSo]

I just realized the new Ed Shempp design Retract is in 9CR wow instabuy! What a great price for such a way cool design!

[chronovore]

Here is a quote from Larrin on his thoughts between AEB-L and 14C28N:

"14C28N is essentially AEB-L (or perhaps more accurately Sandvik 13C26), but with improved corrosion resistance. Despite the improved corrosion resistance, it is still capable of similar hardness (above 62 with cryo), and in CATRA testing it even had slightly improved edge retention."

There was a part of that quote that popped out for me, "with cryo". Is this commonly used for any existing Spyerco models? A heat treat is understandable, but I wasn't sure how prevalent a cryo treatment was. I would have guessed it to be much more rare. And, if without cryo, does it still test as well?

It's "above 62 with cryo". I don't know of any Chinese companies running 14C28N above 62. Come to think of it, do any production companies take 14C28N above 62? I think the American Kershaws in 14C28N were supposed to be 58-60. (I've seen a few American Kershaws independently tested with results landing in the 57-59 range.)

Just for reference, here are the given hardness ranges from a few of the more reputable Chinese brands. (Of these, I've only seen third-party test results for a Civivi that hit 60.)

Kubey - 60-62
Vosteed - 60±1
Civivi (WE) - 58-60 (but some of the coated blades are listed as 57-59)
Kizer - 58-59
SRM - 57-59 (Included here because Spyderco has a preexisting relationship)

[chronovore]

I read a website where a knife reviewer said some Chinese knives listed as D2 are 8Cr13MoV.

But I am very impressed at some of the quality offerings.

That's why the "more reputable companies" is a key distinction. There are still unscrupulous companies in China who will stamp just about anything on a piece of 8Cr13MoV or worse. (For instance, I've seen "D2" or even "M390" that tests as 5Cr15 or 3Cr13.) Rebranding distributors like Eafengrow are part of the problem. You'll find a lot of that kind of stuff on AliExpress.

Thankfully, there are lots of good brands and manufacturers in China and the number has only grown. The brands I listed in my last post are all good to go. There are others, such as Reate, Bestech, and Petrified Fish.