A question about my micarta / cruwear Native Chief

[vcr-repair]

Hey! I have a concern about my favourite pocket knife so I thought I'd sign up here to ask a question about it. As the title states, I've got a Native Chief in micarta and cruwear. It's quickly become the one knife I pick up when I'm heading out the door every day. I like everything about it except...

I've been using it a lot for food prep. When I push down while slicing vegetables (most recently a tomato), the blade hyper-extends a little. It moves beyond the standard open position. While that's happening, I feel with my palm that the part of the lock bar used to actuate the lock itself also moves. I'm not pushing with any excessive force, and this movement really doesn't inspire confidence.

Is this trivial? Is this major? Let me know your thoughts. Like I said, the knife is amazing otherwise. Cheers!

[yablanowitz]

If it bothers you, it's a problem...for you. What you are describing sounds perfectly normal for a back lock. It is caused by a spring pushing parts to one side of the clearances, and cutting force pushing to the other side.

[Scandi Grind]

This is normal for backlocks as long as it isn't excessive. Different people have different definitions of excessive, but typically it has to be pretty bad to be a safety issue, and it is not typical of Spydercos to have an unsafe amount of lock movement. It's hard to tell for sure without seeing it in person or maybe seeing video/picture references, but if it just feels like a little, you should be perfectly fine. Certain things can make it worse, such as extremely frequent and hard flips, but with normal opening force it is rarely a problem. Sometimes they will wear in a little and the movement actually decreases. My Endura settled in a little after the first yearly disassembly and cleaning, but it still has noticeable movement of the lock bar when pressing on the blade to cut food such as apples.

[vivi]

Hey! I have a concern about my favourite pocket knife so I thought I'd sign up here to ask a question about it. As the title states, I've got a Native Chief in micarta and cruwear. It's quickly become the one knife I pick up when I'm heading out the door every day. I like everything about it except...

I've been using it a lot for food prep. When I push down while slicing vegetables (most recently a tomato), the blade hyper-extends a little. It moves beyond the standard open position. While that's happening, I feel with my palm that the part of the lock bar used to actuate the lock itself also moves. I'm not pushing with any excessive force, and this movement really doesn't inspire confidence.

Is this trivial? Is this major? Let me know your thoughts. Like I said, the knife is amazing otherwise. Cheers!

this is lock rock. all spyderco lockbacks have it to some degree, except the chaparral. my chiefs, police folders, pacific salts etc. do the same thing.

[Danke]

Paging Guinness about the World Record toughest tomato.

[cycleguy]

Mine does that … to the extent of the gap in the top metal. The gap is very minimal so the movement is too.

CG

[eventhorizon]

Like the other guys said, unfortunately this seems to be pretty much normal for Spyderco back locks, my REX45 Chief does that, too, quite noticeably.



I understand it's safe to use but it really bothers me haptically, which is a shame because I quite like the design. It actually made me shy away from other Spyderco back lock knives.


I tend to prefer my S90V Manly Peak... no lock rock whatsoever and it's a better slicer. Sorry Spyderco.



(picture borrowed from our own Nemo: https://nemoknivesreview.com/2018/01/03 ... an-wonder/)

[Skar]

I haven’t noticed this yet in any spyder backlocks

[Doc Dan]

As said, this is lock rock and normal in these mid back locks to some degree. It isn't enough to disengage the blade. Spyderco backlocks are super strong, as has been demonstrated in many tests. The only back lock that doesn't have this is the Chaparral because of the internal stop pin. I do have a Delica that no matter how hard I push the bar doesn't move, but the rest do. Some move a good bit and some only a frog hair. I would think that heavier blade would be more prone to it.

[vcr-repair]

Okay thanks for the insight everyone. I've never had lock-rock with backlocks from any other company so I wanted to see if I was dealing with an anomaly here. It sounds like my experience is normal. This knife is great otherwise and I'm definitely going to keep carrying it.

[Bolster]

Doesn't Sage 4 have a stop pin?

[vivi]

I haven’t noticed this yet in any spyder backlocks

most likely you aren't looking closely enough.

there's a simple lock rock test all my spydie lockbacks fail.

open the knife. grip it so your palm is not touching the lockbar. press the cutting edge,near the tip, down on a cutting board with 10-15lbs of force.

in my experience the lock will rock every time on every spyderco lockback I've ever tried this with.

in fact I just did it with my green g10 police 4 and not only can I see and feel the lock rock, I can even hear it.

I can also get it to happen by pinching the blade between my index finger and thumb with my left hand, gripping the handle so I don't cover the lockbar, and moving the handle as if I were cutting something.

You can hear it too in this video:



It's more obvious with some than others, but they all have it to some degree besides the chap.

[Skar]

I haven’t noticed this yet in any spyder backlocks

most likely you aren't looking closely enough.

there's a simple lock rock test all my spydie lockbacks fail.

open the knife. grip it so your palm is not touching the lockbar. press the cutting edge,near the tip, down on a cutting board with 10-15lbs of force.

in my experience the lock will rock every time on every spyderco lockback I've ever tried this with.

in fact I just did it with my green g10 police 4 and not only can I see and feel the lock rock, I can even hear it.

I can also get it to happen by pinching the blade between my index finger and thumb with my left hand, gripping the handle so I don't cover the lockbar, and moving the handle as if I were cutting something.

You can hear it too in this video:



It's more obvious with some than others, but they all have it to some degree besides the chap.

I don’t want to know in this case…
I’m going with ignorance is bliss on this one !

[Wowbagger]

If it bothers you, it's a problem...for you. What you are describing sounds perfectly normal for a back lock. It is caused by a spring pushing parts to one side of the clearances, and cutting force pushing to the other side.

[EDIT : only to change "Lance Sears" to "Lance Clinton" .
Lance Sears was a friend of mine so it just rolled out .

This ^^^ absolutely.

Allow me to introduce myself ; I have been lurking here for over a decade.
Staying out of trouble by not signing on . . .
until now .

I have many Delicas including a Sprint run from a knife vendor in Ti , a Clad REX 45 , the good old ZDP-189 , etc. , etc.,
Love the Delicas !

Then . . . I bought a Delica PD#1 (one of my favorite knives ever ) and it had more than a tolerable amount of slop (I mean rock lock) in the knife .
In "that other forum" we addressed this topic at length including this new Delica .

First off let me say I was in on one of the very first runs of the Spyderco Siren . The brand new example that I bought WAS PERFECT IN EVERY WAY ! This was at a time when there were many posts about rock lock in the Siren .
In the years that followed I bought another Series One Siren (LC200N with G-10 that I ground to 1.9mm at the spine and reprofiled) and a Series Two Siren (S90V with Carbon fiber) .
ALL THREE WERE PERFECT / ZERO OR THE EVER SO SLIGHTEST MOVEMENT WHEN PRESSING REALLY HARD AGAINST A CUTTING BOARD !

((((( so I know they can create slop free back locks))))

Shout out and big thank you to Lance Clinton ! We miss you in the formus !
sooo . . .
anyway . . .

I made the fatal mistake of saying that it was just a matter of "tuning" the lock bar to blade notch fit up and proceded with a lengthy campane of disassembly and reassembly with much filing , fitting and even upsetting of the lock bar (to make it longer) in the process.

It all ended in tears

In the final analysis "we" theorized / decided and tested and came up with jamming teflon plumber's thread sealing tape in around the slip fit blade pivot barrel .
. . . now . . . I'm more of an 'apply apropriate loc tite' or much more of a 'go to the shop lathe and or mill and make a part that has more appropriate dimentions ' kind of person .

I have always been repulsed by the idea of putting Teflon tape where it was never designed to go. E.g. , Teflon tape as a thread locker rather than a seal against leaking air or fluid .

After many months of mulling and finally the appearance of this thread I was "induced" (see the film It Happened On 5th Avenue) to sign on here and bang the keys.
Not everyone has access to turning and milling toys as I do . (by the way guys . . . and this is where I get in trouble . . . possibly banded for all time on my first post (((would that be a forum record ? ? ))) . . . what is needed is a PRESS FIT ; technically "a light press fit" blade pivot barrel ; put a little taper on the end there so the person or robot can get 'er in there .

bada bing bada boom.

I should probably say : nice knowing you all now before the big axe falls .
Before that moment . . .
I am throwing out there this solution ( and will test myself here soon) : the application of Red (yes I said Red) LocTite on just the outside of the slip fit blade pivot barrel .
The way this stuff works is in the absense of oxygen the red stuff SWELLS and fills the GAP.

I'll adjust the pivot for drop shut , my fave , so in case something bad happens (red goop gets on the threads) the blade pivot action will be about where I want it. Chances are I will never pull this knife apart for the rest of my life (I mean I don't take the rivets out of all my Buck 110s and break them down and some how my forty plus year old first one still works as good as it did on day one (((has a taste of rock lock though))) . I'm not one for taking my knives apart unless I am blade swapping .

So there .
I feel better now that I got that out .
Carry on .

[Curtissii]

My chief in magnacut does not have this flex. I’d spend the money to send it in and let Spyderco look at it.

[Wowbagger]

errrrr
that whole Red LocTite thing ?
Yeah , strike that .

I just took 'er apart to do that and found a can of worms.
Sorta mighta worked if it was a sleaved pivot what do they call that ? The new one with the pivot within the pivot.
Nope , nope , nope :

Almost impossible to keep the LocTite out of the blade hole.
Too much gap to fill in the FRN to pivot barrel fit up ; way big gaps there.
The steel liners are too thin to make much difference there even though the fit up is way better. I toyed with the idea of upsetting / peening the holes in the liners until they fit the pivot snug . Realized I might just be putting the final nail in the coffin of my nice blade centering by a mis placed whack of the ball peen pushing the axis of the pivot off perpendicular to the blade .
A small part of the play in the set up is the micro gap between the blade hole and the pivot . Can't fill that with LocTite .

Before I posted I was toying with the idea of upsetting the pivot along it's axis to make it fatter and a tight fit in the other parts ( the blade hole would probably wear down the softer pivot material so it wouldn't bind for long .
but what about . . .
nah
I need more pivot diameter to fit the liners than will slide through the blade hole .
Ha, ha, ha, ha , that would make the need for light thread locker on the pivot adjust screw go away . . . ha, ha, ha, ha upsetting the threaded hole along with the pivot. Be lucky to get the screw threaded back in the pivot.

. . . chase the threads in the pivot ?. . . .

where is that plumber's tape ?
I got some around here some where . . .
yeah in the pneumatic fittings box .

oey ? ? ? what am I doing ? ? ?

Sheeshhhh .

[Wowbagger]

OK, more data
for what it's worth .
It's all coming back to me now , since I took mine completely apart today. (it's back together now until I can get what I need to improve it)
Back when I first did the useless work recorded in the above post I finished up and actually improved it some by forcing a .001 inch thick steel shim stock sliver into the pivot area along the flat spot on the "D" shaped pivot . I found it when I disassembled the knife today.
I don't recommend this as it is stupid difficult to do and only partially effective.

While reassembling the Delica I recalled that my Manbugs are most all free of play and especially my newest one the Manbug Salt with the Rescue blade . I recalled that I had investigated them back then and found they have tiny steel washers outside the FRN and just under the head of the pivot screw and just under the head of the pivot . These fit closely in the recesses (counter bores) in the FRN for the pivot .

These Manbug washers won't work in my Delica and I am going to have to come up with larger ones .Two with larger outside diameters that are the same but one will need a hole in it large enough for the pivot to pass through and the other must have a hole small enough to fit very closely with the threaded portion of the screw. It seems that the threaded end of the pivot on the Manbugs is long enough to fit through the washer then the screw just holds it in place .

[raygixxer89]

I haven’t noticed this yet in any spyder backlocks

Out of all the Spydercos I've owned over the years, I only have two that show a bit of movement and I bought them within a month of each other. My stainless Harpy and my Caly 3.5.
It kinda bothers me to the point that I don't want to carry them. But I do, rarely.