S90V Obsolete?

[Sterling454]

I'm trying to figure out why I would bother with S90V steel when MagnaMax provides similar (if not superior) edge retention, and improved toughness & corrosion resistance. Can anyone offer a well founded argument for why S90V won't be fully obsolesced? Testing data and/or empirical data are most welcome, I'd prefer to stay away from purely anecdotal/opinion based information.

[Naperville]

I think that you are correct.

[Brock O Lee]

CPM-S90V is a well-proven knife steel. It's been around since 1996 and stood the test of time. MagnaMax may be promising, but it still has to prove itself in the real-world.

Perhaps Crucible's demise would accelerate a move away from S90V.

It'll likely be a few more years before MagnaMax becomes mainstream and generally available in popular models. Take Magnacut as an example.

[Mage7]

I'm trying to figure out why I would bother with S90V steel when MagnaMax provides similar (if not superior) edge retention, and improved toughness & corrosion resistance. Can anyone offer a well founded argument for why S90V won't be fully obsolesced? Testing data and/or empirical data are most welcome, I'd prefer to stay away from purely anecdotal/opinion based information.

Well you're kind of asking two different things.

Firstly, why would you bother with it?

Well, because it will be in less demand, so probably cheaper. Though, even the supply vs demand aspect of that will be difficult to anticipate. Since Niagara Specialty Metals is going to rebrand and produce it as NSM 90PM, there will undoubtedly be some confusion and FUD related to that. People may end up unaware that Niagara's S90V is the same, and there will likely be small amounts of CPM S90V around for a while. It will probably create a situation where some people will end up mistakenly believing NSM 90PM to be a new and improved formulation, and of course the opposite will happen where some will suggest that the older stock is superior. That will end up skewing the demand between the two higher or lower than each other, but it's still unlikely that either will have nearly the same demand as MagnaMax. In the meantime they will both likely be far more available than MagnaMax is for a long time before it becomes ubiquitous, but even afterwards there still might be a likelihood that S90V might be more available, and it will turn into the same old dynamic where yester-year's supersteel is today's economic/value option--see S30V and D2 for examples.

Secondly is the question of why S90V won't be obsolete, or rather whether anyone can produce an argument for why it won't be obsolete.

According to the KSN Patreon, MagnaMax will have a 5, 8.5 - 9, and 9 - 9.5 score in toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance. Only the first heat was actually CATRA tested, and it never surpassed S90V, but approached it at the highest levels of hardness. It might still surpass S90V that's not heat treated particularly hard, such as 58 HRC S90V vs 65 HRC MagnaMax, but even then would do so by a small margin in CATRA "edge retention". However with higher toughness and hardness, it will have better edge stability and probably maintain "sharpness" as related to the width of apex radius better. I wouldn't doubt that something like Cedric and Ada's tests have already shown it surpassing S90V, but I consider such testing to be anecdotal even if the logic that edge stability facilitated it is sound--just because it makes sense, doesn't mean it's actually what happened. So whether you can empirically say that it meets or surpasses S90V's edge holding is very questionable and/or circumstantial, and there's more supporting a subjective assessment that they'll be equal in edge holding. However in terms of toughness and corrosion resistance, MagnaMax is clearly superior

So, in summation... No, no one can offer an argument, with the parameters you defined, for why it won't be made obsolete, but there's still likely to be good reason to choose it for a while. Something can be obsolete, but remain a viable commodity. Conventional oil is thoroughly obsolete, but still sells alongside synthetic. VHS tapes and VCRs were still available long after DVDs replaced them as the defacto standard, and now DVDs have their place in the bargain bins after BluRay supplanted them.

Edit: Lol I gotta start proof reading when I post on my phone better

[JoviAl]

I’ll stick my oar in with - it’s silly easy to sharpen and get a wicked sticky edge on. As a person who uses and sharpens knives a lot, that matters to me a great deal more than absolute edge retention (in which S90V is no slouch). It’s a fantastic high performing beginner friendly steel, so I’d buy it for a new knife person. I don’t yet have any magnamax, but it would need to be easier to live with and sharpen to oust S90V for me.

[Evil D]

Obsolete is a harsh word but I do think some steels have less and less to offer when steels like MagnaMax hit the market. It's not like we don't already have high edge retention, high corrosion resistant steels (S110V), but if MagnaMax is easier to deal with in production and easier for the end user to sharpen with no other drawbacks, then I'm not sure why anyone would choose a similar steel that only offers more sharpening difficulty and manufacturing cost.

Personally I'm reaching a point where all I need is a well balanced steel like MagnaCut or MagnaMax and then some flavor of non stainless to play with just because I enjoy it (15V). In terms of actual need I don't think most people will ever really need more than one of the Magna's.

[Brock O Lee]

...it’s silly easy to sharpen and get a wicked sticky edge on...

...It’s a fantastic high performing beginner friendly steel...

Are you referring to MagnaMax?

[JoviAl]

...it’s silly easy to sharpen and get a wicked sticky edge on...

...It’s a fantastic high performing beginner friendly steel...

Are you referring to MagnaMax?

S90V

[JoviAl]

I don’t have any Magnamax yet. My point is that S90V wouldn’t be obsolete unless it was superseded by something that is measurably better not just in the numbered metrics given for edge retention, toughness, etc, but for its ease of sharpening too.

[jdw]

S90V is not obsolete as long as people continue to buy it and use it. My favorite knife is a 52100 Military and I believe that steel dates from around WW1. It’s not stainless and it requires care but it’s easy to sharpen and it still parts matter like crazy so it’s far from functionally obsolete. AEB-L is still in widespread use. Is it considered obsolete? Just because something is the latest and greatest doesn’t make everything else obsolete.

[Brock O Lee]

Just because something is the latest and greatest doesn’t make everything else obsolete.

I still like and use S30V, long after it was "made obsolete" by S35VN, S45VN, Magnacut and SPY27!

My S90V's are going nowhere, except in my pocket!

[Fireman]

S90 V Will be useful for the next generation to date you. It benefits people who like to collect. We are just star dust bunnies traveling through space and time on an unremarkable speck of a planet in an unremarkable universe so cut as much cardboard as you can so the mice can get the answer they need. 42. So long and thanks for all the fish.

[Evil D]

How do you define what obsolete really is in this hobby?

Is it performance? Any measures of performance, or are we singling out one at the cost of others? This means the interpretation is going to be different for everyone (spoiler alert, this is the answer).

I relate a lot of things to cars because I'm a car guy. The Prius didn't make all the other cars around it obsolete just because it got great gas mileage. Some people want power and speed (or looks). Again, what do you prioritize?

A zip-up overall outfit might someday make shirts and pants obsolete, if you believe in science fiction enough.

I think this only makes sense when two steels are extremely similar in practically every way, except for some specific perceived quality, like if MagnaMax truly is a trait for trait equal to K390 but is also highly stainless, then I would say K390 is obsolete for my personal uses, but you know there's people that love patinas so you almost can't say it's universally obsolete.

Do any of you only ever buy the absolute best thing out of a group of options? How often do you find yourself settling for something that is very good but could probably be called obsolete by something that is significantly better?

Sorry, I got stuck thinking about this at work this morning

[endura3]

As others have said, S90V will likely retain an advantage in strict abrasive wear resistance.

But in the strictly technical sense, virtually every steel is rendered "obsolete" by something better anyway. I'm excited to try Magnamax and I think it's great that it performs so well based on everyone's preliminary testing, but I'm not racing to pick it up so I can throw my S90V/S110V/ZDP-189 knives in a big bin that says "obsolete." Heck, ZDP is rendered obsolete by every single high vanadium stainless steel and it's still one of my favorites.

[Freediver]

s90v will always hold a special place in my heart regardless of what newer steels come out to potentially replace it.

[ChrisinHove]

It’ll probably just come down to cost/price.

[PM2Josh]

Obsolete? I guess so lol.
I mean seriously.
Steels don't just go obsolete.

Magnamax is simply Magnacut with better edge retention at the cost of toughness. And the corrosion resistance is under Magnacut also.

I repeat.
Steels don't just go obsolete.

[Sterling454]

CPM-S90V is a well-proven knife steel. It's been around since 1996 and stood the test of time. MagnaMax may be promising, but it still has to prove itself in the real-world.

Perhaps Crucible's demise would accelerate a move away from S90V.

It'll likely be a few more years before MagnaMax becomes mainstream and generally available in popular models. Take Magnacut as an example.

So many great responses that are making me think, thank you! I don't know how to quote multiple people in a single reply so I apologize for how spammy my responses will be.

Brock O Lee, I'm contemplating this question in a somewhat academic sense, as opposed to the rate of which the market adopts it. Practically, you raise a perfectly good point, I'm just having not fun with the statistics and performance attributes.

[Sterling454]

I'm trying to figure out why I would bother with S90V steel when MagnaMax provides similar (if not superior) edge retention, and improved toughness & corrosion resistance. Can anyone offer a well founded argument for why S90V won't be fully obsolesced? Testing data and/or empirical data are most welcome, I'd prefer to stay away from purely anecdotal/opinion based information.

Well you're kind of asking two different things.

Firstly, why would you bother with it?

Well, because it will be in less demand, so probably cheaper. Though, even the supply vs demand aspect of that will be difficult to anticipate. Since Niagara Specialty Metals is going to rebrand and produce it as NSM 90PM, there will undoubtedly be some confusion and FUD related to that. People may end up unaware that Niagara's S90V is the same, and there will likely be small amounts of CPM S90V around for a while. It will probably create a situation where some people will end up mistakenly believing NSM 90PM to be a new and improved formulation, and ify course the opposite will happen where some will suggest that the older stock is superior. That will end up skewing the demand between the two higher or lower than each other, but it's still unlikely that either will have nearly the same demand as MagnaMax. In the meantime they will both likely be far more available than MagnaMax is for a long time before it becomes ubiquitous, but even afterwards there still might be a likelihood that S90V might be more available, and if will turn into the same old dynamic where yester-year's supersteel is today's economic/value option--see S30V and D2 for examples.

Secondly is the question of why S90V won't be obsolete, or rather whether anyone can produce an argument for why it won't be obsolete.

According to the KSN Patreon, MagnaMax will have a 5, 8.5 - 9, and 9 - 9.5 score in toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance. Only the first heat was actually CATRA tested, and it never surpassed S90V, but approached it at the highest levels of hardness. It might still surpass S90V that's not heat treated particularly hard, such as 58 HRC S90V vs 65 HRC MagnaMax, but even then would do so by a small margin in CATRA "edge retention". However with higher toughness and hardness, it will have better edge stability and probably maintain "sharpness" as related to the width of apex radius better. I wouldn't doubt that something like Cedric and Ada's tests have already shown it surpassing S90V, but I consider such testing to be anecdotal even if the logic that edge stability facilitated it is sound--just because it makes sense, doesn't mean it's actually what happ. So whether you can empirically say that it meets or surpasses S90V's edge holding is very questionable and/or circumstantial, and there's more supporting a subjective assessment that they'll be equal in edge holding. However in terms of toughness and corrosion resistance, MagnaMax is clearly superior

So, in summation... No, no one can offer an argument, with the parameters you defined, for why it won't be made obsolete, but there's still likely to be food reason to choose it for a while. Something can be obsolete, but remain a viable commodity. Conventional oil is thoroughly obsolete, but still sells alongside synthetic. VHS tapes and VCRs were still available long after DVDs replaced them as the defacto standard, and now DVDs have their place in the bargain bins after BluRay supplanted them.

A well thought out reply, very much appreciated.

You raise an interesting point about a potential bump in interest in S90V when it gets rebranded which I hadn't considered. Also, there will always be steel collectors - I consider myself one of them! The fact that my Mule Team in MagnaMax won't be the more readily available production melt makes it more of a collectors item to me. It would be super fun to have a CPM Proto-X version too, but those are incredibly exclusive.

Some of your other points about real-world applications are valid - edge geometry, secondary bevel grind angle, sharpening grits, hardness, etc all have major impact. For example, I have a plain-jane Buck 110 folder in 420HC with a hollow grind that I've reprofiled to roughly 12° per side and sharpened with an extreme mirror polish. It is bar far the sharpest blade I own and I use it to shave. No other steel I've tried could reach the same level of sharpness, including my Mule Team in AEB-L with the same profile and sharpening technique.

[Sterling454]

I’ll stick my oar in with - it’s silly easy to sharpen and get a wicked sticky edge on. As a person who uses and sharpens knives a lot, that matters to me a great deal more than absolute edge retention (in which S90V is no slouch). It’s a fantastic high performing beginner friendly steel, so I’d buy it for a new knife person. I don’t yet have any magnamax, but it would need to be easier to live with and sharpen to oust S90V for me.

In my personal experience, S90V has been harder to sharpen effectively than MagnaMax. Based on my layman's understanding of metallurgy from Dr. Thomas's YT channel, that's due to the reduced chromium carbide volume. In MM or MC, you're mostly fighting the vanadium carbides whereas with S90V/NSM 90PM, you have plenty of chromium carbide as well.