Golden Age of Supersteels Over???

[Red Leader]

With their limited capacity, if I were calling the shots, I'd release 3 versions of the core models in this particular order:

1. Salt version.
2. Budget version (frn & bd1n or something along those lines)
3. premium tool steel version (15V and a special color micarta with uniquely colored hardware)

I think this would be worth it's own post, and I'd encourage you to do it. And as previously said, while I am extremely grateful that Spyderco is spearheading (as a production company) many latest and greatest steel developments, including tool steels...

...deep inside, I know that when it really comes down to it and the cards fall, it's gonna land on the Salt series.

My previous thoughts have somewhat aligned with yours, and it was going to be based on steel. For example:

Budget Series?
14C28N!!! No frills, basic handles, make it cost effective. Just the most popular models. Get rid of Bryd knives, and most of the Chinesium folders. Take the Tenacious, give it to Seki, and let's start moving away from China.

Salt Series:
LC200N / H2: Ultimate corrosion resistance and durability. FRN handles and the like (budget)
Magnacut: Good all-rounder, mid-line (G10/special Salt handles)
Magnamax: Premium edge holding

Performance Series:
3V - Ultra hard use, FRN handles, and make those round holes just a bit smaller for more strength
Cruwear - Good all rounder, G10
(K390/ some other new 'ultimate' tool steel?) - Ultra edge holding, micarta handles?

Premium Series:
Mixed bag of steels, specialty stuff, collaborations, lots of titanium, carbon fiber, etc. This is where we'd see a lot of the Italy knives. Also, limited runs, Flash batches, Sprint runs, Exclusives, etc.

Spyderco could potentially trim things down and consolidate. Add in Magnamax (eventually), 3V and 14C28N, and lose some of the 8cr/Chinese stuff. There is some redundancy in their current catalog and I think they are spread pretty thin.

And all of this isn't worth a hill of beans since I'm not on the product line development team or a marketing guru or whatever. But I have had a lot of time to think about all this.

The most immediate, glaringly obvious thing is to get every Golden model in the Salt line as fast as possible, no matter the cost (yes, get rid of other models to make it happen). I'm talking Shaman and Bodacious, and for goodness sake please give them some 'salt' handles that are less slippery. Best Spyderco handles I've ever felt are the textured FRN handles of the Jumpmaster 2 and the Enuff 2 - it is the contouring that 'makes' them. I used to have a D'allara that was contoured FRN but was a pocket shredder. Okay, lose the texture right down the center area where the clip rides, and keep the rest. Bam, problem solved.

And speaking of 'Salt' popularity...look how fast that PM2 salt sells out every time.

[8th_Note]

This is an interesting take, Vivi.

A very narrow take…

It is precisely Spyderco’s “goofing around” with different steels that brings me back for more. No other knife manufacturer on the planet gives us this variety.

not narrow, just honest. different strokes. I'd trade every maxamet and 15V model run so far for a magnacut police.

Really like the Police magnacut idea. G10 of course!

A Police 3 in Magnacut

[LorenzoL]

Crucible hadn't developed new knife steels for several years after their bankruptcy in 2009. They then released several steels in short succession starting with CPM-S45VN in 2019 followed by SPY27 in 2020 and MagnaCut in 2021. It could be argued that Crucible was not leading the development of knife steels at least in terms of volume of new products.

The following list shows some key steels used in knives along with an approximate date for each. If a "golden age" existed I would vote for 1900-1940 as that was the period during which many of the major alloying categories were created including high speed steel, stainless steel, and most of the common tool steel types like O1, A2, and D2. There are many steels that were developed in this time period I have not included just because they wouldn't be that common in knives. Since the late 1980s there has been a new steel released virtually every year that has been or is being used in knives. However, not all of these are "major developments" (according to my estimation), meaning some of those are relatively minor composition changes to earlier steels. One example would be Nitro-V, which is basically AEB-L with a small addition of vanadium and nitrogen. Other steels may have relatively unique compositions but were designed to fit the same niche as prior products. An example of this would be Maxamet which is a 70 Rc high speed steel with 6% vanadium released in 2000, but ASP60 is also a 70 Rc high speed steel with 6% vanadium and it came out around 1975. Some steels are simply powder metallurgy versions of earlier conventional steels, such as RWL-34/CPM-154 (154CM/ATS-34), CPM-3V (Vasco Die), CPM-D2 (D2).

Year Steel
1902 F2
1905 O1
1905 52100
1907 O7
1908 O2
1912 D3
1912 420
1924 1.4116
1924 440A
1926 AEB-H
1928 D2
1930 440C
1932 S5
1937 M2
1937 T15
1938 M4
1938 A2
1953 S7
1957 154CM
1959 BG42
1960 Chipper knife steel (A8 mod)
1964 12C27
1964 Vasco Die
1968 AEB-L
1968 AUS-4 and AUS-6
1970 Powder Metallurgy
1970 ASP30 (Rex 45)
1972 Vasco Wear
1975 ASP60 (Vanadis 60)
1970s AUS-8
1976 CPM-10V
1980 VG10
1982 Cobalt Special
1983 CPM-S60V
1987 Vanadis 4 (non-extra)
1988 M390
1989 Niolox
1990 Elmax
1991 CPM-15V
1991 Cronidur 30 (LC200N)
1993 440-XH
1995 CPM-S90V
1995 RWL-34
1997 CPM-3V
1997 Rex 121 and Rex 86
1998 Super Gold 2
1988 ATS-55
1999 Vancron 40
2000 Maxamet
2000 ZDP-189 and Cowry-X
2001 CPM-S125V
2001 CPM-S30V
2001 CD#1
2002 S290
2002 CPM-1V
2003 Vanadis 4 Extra
2004 Nitrobe 77
2004 CPM-154
2004 K390
2005 Vanax 35 and 75
2005 K890
2007 CPM-D2
2008 CruForgeV
2009 14C28N
2009 CPM-S35VN
2009 CTS-XHP
2010 CPM-S110V
2010 K490
2010 Z-Wear (CPM-CruWear)
2013 Vanax
2014 BD1N
2015 Vanadis 8
2017 Nitro-V
2019 M398
2019 CPM-S45VN
2020 Vancron
2020 CPM-SPY27
2021 MagnaCut
2022 H2
2022 ApexUltra
2022 VG XEOS
2023 SPG STRIX
2024 Nitro-X7
2024 K888
2025 Pops ProCut

Very cool, thank you for posting that, Larrin. I've now learned that many of those steels have been in existence for MUCH longer than I thought they were.

Jim

Same here. I remember when the Mule launched in 52100, I knew it was a traditional ball bearing steel but I was not aware that it was a pre WWI steel

[jasonstone20]

Larrin,
Nice list, thank you for posting it! And I like the perspective/narrative about knives and swords being the main drivers behind steel development. Very nice list also, really shows where there were "blooms" in technological breakthroughs in steels and metallurgy. I was going off the assumption and narrative that AEB-L was created for razor blades, and S30V was one of the first steels designed for knives in a very long time, and that today the main driving industry for metallurgy is the automobile industry.

[jasonstone20]

vivi,
I agree with having three versions of the core models. But if you take another look at it, that is basically what is already being done, just without it being very obvious, but the overall specs of some knives are pretty much the same, even though the name of the model and the design is a little different.

[Flash]

I never particularly wanted to be aboard the Magnacut hype train, but after using it for the last year as my go to EDC in the form of my UKPK salt. I’m very happy with its performance, to the point it has me wanting it on other models and questioning whether I really need much more performance in any given area.
It gets sharp easily, it stays sharp for a good while, it doesn’t get rusty and the edge doesn’t chip when you are clumsy. It’s Good stuff. So in the words of John Rambo - “Nothing is over! Nothing!!”

Spyderco, make a Magnacut Chaparral please.

[Flash]

Double

[James Y]

As for supersteels I find myself in agreement with Vivi - corrosion resistance (or functional imperviousness) is the deal breaker for me over all other factors. Edge retention is nice, but sharpening Magnacut and H1/2 is a breeze with a CBN double stuff and 5 mins. I enjoy using my 15V Shaman and my smorgasbord of CPM Cruwear and K390 knives, but for my work tools Magnacut (and SE H1) is hard to beat.

I have a bunch of tool steel spydercos ive enjoyed using too. cruwear temp, k390 police, m4 manix xl, 4v manix xl, rex45 chief, etc.

it was fun messing around with those steels, watching patinas develop, etc.

but if I had to choose just one version of each model, hands down it's the salt versions for me.

and, prior to those releasing, I would have gone with dlc s30v military, manix xl, etc. as my one and done for each model I like.

Corrosion resistance is a lot more important to me than edge holding, because for me fighting rust is a lot more work than touching up as edge.

in an ideal world we could order any model in any steel spyderco works with, and choose the scale color too. Custom shop dreams.

With their limited capacity, if I were calling the shots, I'd release 3 versions of the core models in this particular order:

1. Salt version.
2. Budget version (frn & bd1n or something along those lines)
3. premium tool steel version (15V and a special color micarta with uniquely colored hardware)

I would love having a Salt version of the Military 2 and the PM2, but unfortunately, the texturing of the G10 at the clips' contact points of those models doesn't look pocket friendly, as if the touch points weren't taken into consideration during the design phase for the texturing.

That said, I very well might one day purchase a Magnacut-bladed Spyderco, if by that time Magnacut is still available. It may not be; in which case, hopefully, there will be an alternative that's pretty much equal in every way to Magnacut by another manufacturer.

Jim

I felt exactly the same when I first saw the Military. I was pretty annoyed to see that aspect of the design seemingly overlooked after I raised the issue with long FRN folders like the Police 4 over 5 years ago.

After carrying a Military Salt I wouldn't say that concern is totally unfounded, but I would say you shouldn't let it hold you back from owning one.

The difference between unclipping my Military Salt and my stock G10 Military 2's is absolutely not big enough to not buy the Salt version in my opinion. I'm running my Military Salt with stock scales too - 5 minutes with some 400-600 grit sandpaper would definitely get it as smooth to clip and unclip as a stock model.

I know you don't buy many knives these days - I don't either when it comes to folders. But after trying out this knife, I'd say a Military Salt would be the first folder I'd buy if all my spydies got lost in a fire and I was starting from square 1. I can't recommend it or the PM2 equivalent enough depending on your size preference.

Thanks, vivi.

I like both the Military and PM2 sizes a lot. I haven't bought a knife in years now, and don't know if or when I ever will again. But if I do, a Salt Military and probably also a Salt PM2 would probably be a reason to buy again in the future. Possibly also a Para 3 Salt as well, to complete the family. Then I would stop buying knives again after that. For me, stopping knife buying is easy. Getting started again, that's another story, especially after not doing it for so long. Which is probably a good thing!

Hopefully, Magnacut or its equivalent will still be around by that time.

Jim

[wrdwrght]

Crucible hadn't developed new knife steels for several years after their bankruptcy in 2009. They then released several steels in short succession starting with CPM-S45VN in 2019 followed by SPY27 in 2020 and MagnaCut in 2021. It could be argued that Crucible was not leading the development of knife steels at least in terms of volume of new products.

The following list shows some key steels used in knives along with an approximate date for each. If a "golden age" existed I would vote for 1900-1940 as that was the period during which many of the major alloying categories were created including high speed steel, stainless steel, and most of the common tool steel types like O1, A2, and D2. There are many steels that were developed in this time period I have not included just because they wouldn't be that common in knives. Since the late 1980s there has been a new steel released virtually every year that has been or is being used in knives. However, not all of these are "major developments" (according to my estimation), meaning some of those are relatively minor composition changes to earlier steels. One example would be Nitro-V, which is basically AEB-L with a small addition of vanadium and nitrogen. Other steels may have relatively unique compositions but were designed to fit the same niche as prior products. An example of this would be Maxamet which is a 70 Rc high speed steel with 6% vanadium released in 2000, but ASP60 is also a 70 Rc high speed steel with 6% vanadium and it came out around 1975. Some steels are simply powder metallurgy versions of earlier conventional steels, such as RWL-34/CPM-154 (154CM/ATS-34), CPM-3V (Vasco Die), CPM-D2 (D2).

Year Steel
1902 F2
1905 O1
1905 52100
1907 O7
1908 O2
1912 D3
1912 420
1924 1.4116
1924 440A
1926 AEB-H
1928 D2
1930 440C
1932 S5
1937 M2
1937 T15
1938 M4
1938 A2
1953 S7
1957 154CM
1959 BG42
1960 Chipper knife steel (A8 mod)
1964 12C27
1964 Vasco Die
1968 AEB-L
1968 AUS-4 and AUS-6
1970 Powder Metallurgy
1970 ASP30 (Rex 45)
1972 Vasco Wear
1975 ASP60 (Vanadis 60)
1970s AUS-8
1976 CPM-10V
1980 VG10
1982 Cobalt Special
1983 CPM-S60V
1987 Vanadis 4 (non-extra)
1988 M390
1989 Niolox
1990 Elmax
1991 CPM-15V
1991 Cronidur 30 (LC200N)
1993 440-XH
1995 CPM-S90V
1995 RWL-34
1997 CPM-3V
1997 Rex 121 and Rex 86
1998 Super Gold 2
1988 ATS-55
1999 Vancron 40
2000 Maxamet
2000 ZDP-189 and Cowry-X
2001 CPM-S125V
2001 CPM-S30V
2001 CD#1
2002 S290
2002 CPM-1V
2003 Vanadis 4 Extra
2004 Nitrobe 77
2004 CPM-154
2004 K390
2005 Vanax 35 and 75
2005 K890
2007 CPM-D2
2008 CruForgeV
2009 14C28N
2009 CPM-S35VN
2009 CTS-XHP
2010 CPM-S110V
2010 K490
2010 Z-Wear (CPM-CruWear)
2013 Vanax
2014 BD1N
2015 Vanadis 8
2017 Nitro-V
2019 M398
2019 CPM-S45VN
2020 Vancron
2020 CPM-SPY27
2021 MagnaCut
2022 H2
2022 ApexUltra
2022 VG XEOS
2023 SPG STRIX
2024 Nitro-X7
2024 K888
2025 Pops ProCut

I wonder if anyone asked the OP’s question after M4 and A2 came out in 1938.

[Doc Dan]

We haven't even scratched the surface of what steels can be. It isn't over, far from it. We are just getting started. With the advent of transparent aluminum (I guess I have to rewrite some of my books) we may see transparent steel alloys before too much longer. Steel will likely be left behind in twenty years, or so, as the industry moves forward. Who knows what the next twenty to fifty years will bring?

[kobold]

Already started saving for my first quantum knife :-)

[Synov]

Flexible ceramics that never need to be sharpened are coming any day now...

[sal]

Many in the knife industry purchase by appearance rather than performance, especially folks new to the industry. As one learns more, then, "Beyond Looks" plays a larger role. Steel is one of those few areas were "looks" play little value and the focus is on performance.

I would like to predict that steels with an unusual appearance will play a bigger part in the industry in the net 10 - 20 years. I'm planning a Damascus Mule. Many like the looks of the hipped Ceramic blade Mule.

Hey Larrin, what can we do to steel to alter the appearance? (besides teeth).

sal

[RustyIron]

Many in the knife industry purchase by appearance rather than performance, especially folks new to the industry.

As a youngster of a mere sixty-two years, I must admit to falling into this category. Appearance, to me, is just as important as blade material, handle finish, and ergonomics. Life is too short to carry an ugly knife. I just want the pretty ones.

I would like to predict that steels with an unusual appearance will play a bigger part in the industry

I can't believe your competitors haven't fully embraced tool steels. My favorite tools hanging in the garage are the brown Plumb, Starrett, Williams, and others. Chrome tools and stainless knives remind me of something best suited for operating rooms or slathering marmalade on toast. My knives of K390, REX45, Maxamet, and now 15V have characters all their own. They do their jobs better, and they do it with soul.

[sal]

Hey RustyIron,

"Soul" is an interesting way to look at it.

sal

[WilliamMunny]

Many in the knife industry purchase by appearance rather than performance, especially folks new to the industry. As one learns more, then, "Beyond Looks" plays a larger role. Steel is one of those few areas were "looks" play little value and the focus is on performance.

I would like to predict that steels with an unusual appearance will play a bigger part in the industry in the net 10 20 years. I'm planning a Damascus Mule. Many like the looks of the hipped Ceramic blade Mule.

Hey Larrin, what can we do to steel to alter the appearance? (besides teeth).

sal

Thumbs up on seeing another Damascus Mule!

I am not sure if you can dye steel, but having a factory bluing on a knife could be unique but I am sure would not last.

Finishes can really change the look of a knife. Personally, I like to see the factory vertical grind lines, but I have also seen a ton of positive comments on the 15V's stone washed finish. With the trend of polished edges, you could see how a mirror polished finished work on the whole blade. Additionally, you could also try some type of intentional grind pattern, semi-circles come to mind, on the blade.

Spydeco does a great job engraving their logo, name and steel type. Why not extend it artistically to cover more of the blade? Add patterns, art, seasons, landscapes. ****, run the same Delica with landscapes in the four diffrent seasons. You will have the same knife in Winter, Spring, Summer and Fall. When purchased you get a random one, can't pick, unless in person of course. I guarantee some people would want to collect them all if done right.

IMG_7160.jpeg (15.53 KiB) Viewed 904 times

[Evil D]

Buying based on looks and I think ergonomics are definitely two of the biggest selling factors. I also think lock type plays more of a part than you might think even with casual buyers, when I first handled a compression lock it seemed like a dumb upsidedown liner lock and for some reason I couldn't get away from wanting to operate it with my thumb because liner locks were all I could compare them to. Then at some point I had the ah-ha moment and realized it's operated by index finger and then it made more sense. At that time I would've been far more likely to buy a liner lock or back lock, and my first two Spyderco's were back locks for that reason.


As far as steel effecting sales, I think sharpening and edge damage are big contributing factors. Many people are never going to stop using knives for stuff they shouldn't, and when their $200 folder chips the edge and/or rusts they're going to wonder why this piece of crap knife cost them $200 when their $20 department store knives may not hold an edge for long but also didn't chip up the edge or rust. I think some of what we AFI's consider to be special and super steels could be a nightmare for lots of casual users.

Think about it, pretend you know very little about steels and sharpening, and all you have is a cheap pull through sharpener. Let's say you have some random 420 variant steel knife and your buddy gave you a Maxamet Native 5 for Christmas. You used the Native and chipped the heck out of the blade and now you need to sharpen it but no matter what you do the dang thing won't get sharp on your pull through sharpener but that 420 knife at least got sharp enough to use. Once you get past the initial advantage of factory edge retention, you're left with a steel that's more prone to damage from the uses you need it for, that you cant sharpen, that will rust if you forget and leave it outside on the porch on a hot humid summer night. After all this plus the Native costs how much more than my old 420 knife?

Now, to play devil's advocate this whole scenario can go the other direction if your buddy bought you a Native Salt instead. But this just further highlights how steel type can change the buyer's experience.

[cjk]

I've often thought that lasered on "fauxmascus" on actual high performance steel really ought to be a thing.
Actual Damascus seems like a pretty thing to some folks, but appears to give up some real world performance. Damasteel is expensive and at the end of the day, just RWL34.
If the design was lasered on, you'd get both pretty and high performance. Imagine laser engraved S90V, how awesome would that be? Would it be more cost effective than Damasteel?

This could alternatively be scenes or logos (potentially kinda analogous to the Q series).

[Danke]

Superblue Damascus with a factory patina.

[cjk]

In repsonse to @Evil D , I rather like Sandvik 14c28n as an entry level steel. It's simple, easy to sharpen, tough, and I would probably have to work very hard to get it to rust. I'd love to try serrated 14c28n too! It would make a great alternative entry level steel, assuming it has relatively low cost. Some of the bigger online knife shops have filters that allow one to narrow down search results based on steel, lock type, blade length, etc. ... and I'll sometimes go look specifically at 14c28N knives.
I'd love to have some Native 5 lightweights in 14c28n.

14c28n reminds me of a dollar store version of LC200N.