Thoughts to share on a foundry

[sal]

This is bit of history, talkin' story, Crucible, sharing thoughts and encouragement;

Back in the day when I was a youngun', circa mid '60's, ( I was about 23 )I was working in a circuit board manufacturing company.

We were manufacturing production pieces for mostly industry. After a few years, I realized that making prototypes of circuit boards was very challenging for circuit board companies. They would present the drawing for a prototype and submit it to one of the companies making boards. But because prototypes was a real challenge to try to fit into a production house, it could take weeks to get a prototype made.

All of the same preliminary processes that went into making a production board were present in the making of a prototype, but the one or two boards required was always a loss for the company making the boards. This lost time was very expensive for those needing the prototype samples to test. And if the board needed additional improvement, the whole process started again.

I saw a market for a miniature division specializing in only the making of prototype boards. I presented the idea to the bosses, and they completely rejected the concept. I was a factory worker with little money, but I decided to jump on the idea. Because I had the knowledge on how to make all of the processes to make a board from drawing to end product, I decided to build a prototype circuit board manufacturing company. With very little money, I started in my garage. I built most of my equipment from wood and fiberglass, borrowed some funds to purchase what I could not build, mostly used equipment, and launched my company.

With my custom equipment, I could build a prototype board from start to finish in 24 hours and if it had to be through hole plated, it would take 48 hours. I worked my self for a while and when I could, I rented a small shop, trained 6 crackerjacks and did a weeks worth of sales calls. I built a circuit board that looked like the the human nervous system, but it was a finished board. I presented my board and my business card to a number of companies in the Southern California Aerospace market, and told them I could deliver a prototype in 24 to 48 hours depending on the board. We kicked butt for years.

I ended up selling the company for some very stupid reasons, but it was very successful as long as I ran it.

A foundry like Crucible needs volume (production) in order to operate. Blade steels do not offer that opportunity as the alloys are difficult to make, especially when powdered, and a knife blade is not very large so the volume is very challenging to produce.

I had the thought to create a miniature foundry capable of powder, primarily to produce steels for the knife and related industries, that could serve the need for smaller volume (like I did with prototypes). I realized that I'm too old (83 on my next birthday) to try to start such an adventure at this time in my life, and I'm still pretty bdy with my current business interests. but I thought to share the thought with the knife afi's here, many younger, in the hopes that someone or group might see the benefit of such a project?

sal
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"The only thing that stands between you and anything you want is enough self discipline".

[pinchyfisher]

Brilliant idea, at least in my mind. If you can't grow the demand, reduce the overhead and build for adaptability.

I'd imagine startup costs are still high, but less.

Of course, I know nothing about steel production.

Interesting read- thanks for sharing!

[SpyderEdgeForever]

This is very amazing sal. Not to derail this, I believe what I am about to say lines up with and compliments your amazing real life circuit board factory experience.

Eric Drexler the nanotechnologist and his colleagues have said for decades since the late 1970s that once APM, Atomically Precise Manufacturing coupled with Rapid 3d printing takes off, we will see a return of Garage Style factories again. I am sure the big corps and governments will try to dominate, but recall that alot of the Silicon Valley people started with visions similiar to your's.

The key will be that the Capital Cost of personal factories to produce anything people can program them to, will be as cheap and accessible as plant seeds are and more so.

Is it possible for you to get your printed circuit boards going again, perhaps in the hands of some trusted company?

[zhyla]

I wonder if that MIM process Magpul is using reduces the problem of producing small volume cutlery steel from “foundry” to “a small shop that grinds up elements and mixes the powders together”. If you don’t need to melt steel and process everything into bar stock, it’s got to reduce the amount of investment and overhead needed.

I may be talking out of my hat as I don’t know how MIM works.

[RustyIron]

I had the thought to create a miniature foundry capable of powder, primarily to produce steels for the knife and related industries, that could serve the need for smaller volume (like I did with prototypes). I realized that I'm too old (83 on my next birthday) to try to start such an adventure at this time in my life,

That's a cool story, Sal. Who would have guessed a guy would go from Electron Jockey to Knivemaker? The paths we take from being born to having gray hair are amazing. Humbling? Baffling? Despite being two decades your junior, I fully understand the need to prioritize the fun things that we choose to do. No one can "do it all," so we have to be choosy.

Really, the foundries and methods that fascinate me most are those of 100+ years ago. Compared to that era, the things we routinely to today are mind bending. Honestly, the things we did back then were mind-bending, too. Maybe my mind is just easily bent. Regardless, there's some young whippersnapper sitting there who someday soon will come up with even more elegant, efficient, and economical ways to create a slab of custom steel for our knives. The recent work of MIM blades by Magpull comes to mind. What's could possibly be next?

[SchoonerBum]

Sal, that is a very cool idea.

[Evil D]

I am somewhat surprised this hasn't already happened, not to sound like I'm trivializing how difficult it would be but a knife company could better control more of their costs if they also ran their own foundry. This happens in other industries, the company I work for that make boxes also own pulp mills that make the paper and even land where forests are grown to harvest for wood pulp. They control as much cost as they can where they can. But this is also a far bigger company than any knife company so maybe it's just not realistic to shrink it down to this level.

[Doc Dan]

I don't see how it could be profitable in this country. Perhaps in China, Vietnam, or somewhere, but in the USA I think the machinery, furnaces, raw materials, labor, and other things would be cost prohibitive. I am likely wrong, but it seems that way to me. It seems like the cost would be more than the knife company would make.

[WilliamMunny]

Sal,

It's always great to hear your stories and as you said hopefully inspires other people. While politics always get in the way it still holds true if there is an idea and given the opportunity you can be very successful.

Every household has multiple knives in, pocketknives, tool knives, kitchen knives, etc. If a small foundry can produce a superior product with much less overhead of big foundries, I think it could be very successful.

[KirthGersen]

Hello,

I've been reading this forum for quite a while but have never posted; I felt compelled because I had no idea one of the people responsible for my favorite knives is a PCB guy like me.

I made these scales from an LED matrix driver PCB I designed for work.

This is a unique and awesome community, by the way!

[Brock O Lee]

I don't think it would be impossible, but it would be a risky and costly endeavour.

Steelmaking is a specialist field with a unique set of challenges. It is worrisome if foundries with decades of experience struggle to survive in the USA. You'd compete with other large and established foundries. The key to success would be economies of scale to dilute the costs. To be competitive at all at a smaller scale, my gut feel is that your factory would have to be in a country with cheap energy and labour costs. But then you'd also have to absorb the cost of shipping and tarrifs.

I worked at a foundry for several years in engineering in the heart of the operation. Personally I would not risk it, but I am not a business man.

[Pacu0420]

20250207_173253.jpg20250207_173253.jpg

Hello,

I've been reading this forum for quite a while but have never posted; I felt compelled because I had no idea one of the people responsible for my favorite knives is a PCB guy like me.

I made these scales from an LED matrix driver PCB I designed for work.

This is a unique and awesome community, by the way!

Those scales are soooo cool! Love 'em!

I really think Sal is on to something with this idea. One poster mentioned the cardboard company he works for owns pulp mills and forest land. I believe the right person could set up a small scale foundry. It makes total sense. Of course there will be naysayers. I'd be willing to bet there were people that told Sal that starting a pocket knife company was a bad idea. Look where he is now. Yes, it would be a large undertaking to start a small foundry exclusively for knife steel, but not impossible. Just takes the right person with the right motivation.

[bdblue]

I wonder if that MIM process Magpul is using reduces the problem of producing small volume cutlery steel from “foundry” to “a small shop that grinds up elements and mixes the powders together”. If you don’t need to melt steel and process everything into bar stock, it’s got to reduce the amount of investment and overhead needed.

I was wondering the same thing. Melting and casting steel takes a lot of equipment. If you're making barstock maybe the equipment could be smaller than if you are making structural steel for buildings.

I think the biggest challenge here in the USA would be the vented smoke stacks you have. Heck here in the USA they expect flowers to come out the exhaust pipes of everything, anymore.

I don't know how difficult this is. We have plenty of small steel mills in this country, I've visited 2 within 150 miles of where I live. They don't really burn anything, the heat is from electricity (a whole lot of electricity). They dump the scrap in a big bucket, heat it with electrodes, pour the molten stuff out and let it cool into bars. Most of these mills make steel for construction so they will heat up the bars later and form them into the finished product. When I visit these mills I'm always interested in the metallurgy, how they control it, things like that, but they are producing more mundane steels. The most recent mill I visited did roll bars for car leaf springs so they had to add other elements to that product. They had several bins of crushed minerals that they used for alloying. I picked up a few bits and didn't recognize any of it. Most mills of this type recycle the steel, they don't work from ore. The raw material is mostly cars, some of it is other steel reclaimed from construction. The metal used in cars these days is pretty good so it isn't hard to get good product out for construction use.

I don't know what would be the smallest amount of steel you could melt and cast and make a reasonable product, and I don't even know what the particle steel process looks like or if it could be scaled down.

[mikey177]

Completely off topic, but I just remembered the C160 Spyderco Foundry that was made in collaboration with Carpenter, and how there will probably never be a similar model with the folks at Crucible.

[sal]

I'm sure that there are a few folks that are now at Crucible that have the knowledge of the process.

sal

[Bearcat1]

Sal,

Your idea is interesting. What kind of money would it take to do that and I expect it would be someone more senior in life and do you want to take that kind of risk later in life?

To be an entrepreneur you have to have vision and the willing to risk and is that the industry to get into.

[abbazaba]

What's Shawn up to?

[nerdlock]

I have nothing technical to contribute to the conversation, other than to wish and pray for @sal to have many more hale years to come, to see the fruition of his endeavors such as this.

[JFR1]

Thank you for sharing this, Sal. Starting a business is often about finding the right opportunity and having enough know-how to make it happen. That's the reason I'm currently self-employed and it sounds like that was the case for you as well. It's also really cool to learn more about your life's journey!
Perhaps someone with enough know-how will see this opportunity and attempt to capitalize on it. If there's money to be made, someone will figure it out.

[KirthGersen]

20250207_173253.jpg20250207_173253.jpg

Hello,

I've been reading this forum for quite a while but have never posted; I felt compelled because I had no idea one of the people responsible for my favorite knives is a PCB guy like me.

I made these scales from an LED matrix driver PCB I designed for work.

This is a unique and awesome community, by the way!

Those scales are soooo cool! Love 'em!

I really think Sal is on to something with this idea. One poster mentioned the cardboard company he works for owns pulp mills and forest land. I believe the right person could set up a small scale foundry. It makes total sense. Of course there will be naysayers. I'd be willing to bet there were people that told Sal that starting a pocket knife company was a bad idea. Look where he is now. Yes, it would be a large undertaking to start a small foundry exclusively for knife steel, but not impossible. Just takes the right person with the right motivation.

Thanks for the kind words!