Metal Injection Molding by Magpul. Thoughts?

[Liquid Cobra]

I just finished watching this excellent video from BladeHQ announcing Magpul knives made with injected metal. Here’s the link:

[bbvideo] [/bbvideo]

This technology could be a step forward in the knife world and so naturally I thought of Spyderco and wanted to hear Sals thoughts and from other members of the forum.

Apparently they claim that they used S35VN steel and their test results from CATRA indicated that the blades performed as well and somewhat better than cold rolled or CPM steel.

[Synov]

MIM is not a new technology, Kershaw was doing this in 2006 with 440C. I'm very skeptical of claims that the steel performs better than PM. It makes producing knives cheaper, that's it.

[Scandi Grind]

If it is cheaper, I don't have a problem with that part assuming all else remains the same, but I am sceptical that it will improve performance. Now I do like cost saving technology, so that is sufficient to quip my interest, but as far as how much cheaper it is, or how well it performs, we shall see. The proof will be in the pudding, as they say.

[RustyIron]

The Gun Forum Boys have been melting down since gunmakers first started using MIM parts. Injection molded metal parts are not inherently worse. For as long as people have been making guns, parts have ranged from great to awful, from reliable to junk. Nowadays, MIM is used in rocket engines, race cars, and medical implants. MIM stuff can be pretty darned good.

Magpul claims they've made an S35V that's better than S35V. That's a bold statement. If they can indeed make particle steels that are as good as the traditional methods, but with modern processes, could we be witnessing the birth of a new golden age in knife steel?

Imagine the following scenario from the olden days of steel technology. Fictitious owners Sam and Erin are sipping Red Bull and playing Call of Duty in the executive suite of their make-believe office building:

Sam: Hey, son. Did you look at the Forums yet today?
Erin: Yeah, pops. Scandi seems stoked about the new Sage 6, but he said it would be great in 15V.
Sam: Whaaaat? That's a great idea! His birthday is coming up. Let's do a Sprint Sage in 15V!
Erin: Yeahhhhh... nah. Crucible isn't scheduled for another batch of 15V until August, and that's assuming they're still in business. Niagara is booked solid for six months. We couldn't possibly have the knives any sooner than fall of 2026.
Sam: Ha! I just breached the Nazi compound!

With the advent of this newfangled MIM technology, the conversation might go in another direction:

Erin: Scandi seems stoked about the new Sage 6, but he said it would be great in 15V.
Sam: That boy is a GENIUS! Let's give it to him. We'll whip out a Sprint Sage in 15V!
Erin: On it! <Gets on his iPhone and sends a text to the MIM department instructing them to squirt some 15V into the Sage molds>
Sam: It's GREAT to live in the 21st century. Sniper! 2 o'clock!
Erin: Production says the blades will be cast by the end of the week, and the knives will be ready by the beginning of the month.
Sam: Sweeeeeet.

I'm thinking of another scenario where the Swami of Steel, Doctor Darrin, calls up and suggests that Sam and Erin add a pinch of niobium and a dash of valerium their next batch of supersteel to improve the level of awesomeness. Would MIM allow this level of flexibility?

Surely the scenario is an oversimplification, but if labor, materials, energy, and time can be reduced, all while maintaining the same level of quality, we might be looking at even greater variety and more affordable prices in the not-too-distant future. Or maybe it's all hype being thrown around by overzealous pitchmen and cheerleaders. I'm eager to see where this goes.

[Wallach]

I'll wait for consumer testing. The $200+ price of the knives doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, personally. You are competing with products not just like Spyderco's USA-made models, but stuff like the TRM Atom and Neutron for example. Where's the advantage for the consumer if they cost the same and the steel "performs roughly the same"?

[spydergoat]

Props to magpul for making it in USA. I think price should go down to $150 eventually, but magpul fans will buy the first run at fell retail. It looks like they released a $500 frame lock five years ago so that gives you some guess at how much it costs them to machine a knife. I don’t like the design of this Breslau all that much, riding the fences between flippered EDC slicer and tactical wharncliffe. Rather get a Yojimbo or Canis or Emerson or Malibu.

[Scandi Grind]

Interesting lock design they got there, seems like it was only possible to do efficiently with MIM. I actually like the design a lot visually. If it did go down to $150 and the steel performs at least as well as CPM s35vn, then I would be impressed. I'll be very curious to see how things pan out in the long run.

Rusty's fantasy above may not be entirely realistic (then again, I wouldn't know) but it certainly is an appealing concept even if it weren't quite that easy.

[Mrj]

Cast metal

[Vamais]

I can see the claims of rough performance equivalence being valid.

Both the CPM process and MIM start with the powdered melt, and in both cases the powders are sintered into a solid. The difference is in how they are sintered and the parts are further processed. With CPM, the steel is rolled by Niagra, then blade blanks are cut and ground. With MIM, near-net shape blades (enlarged to account for shrinkage) are molded, then after sintering may need some finish grinding. This is much less grinding than is needed when making blades from flat stock.

Benefits of MIM are that less raw material is used, fewer abrasives are consumed, and that blades do not need to be ground from standard thickness stock. Harder to grind steels may be easier to process with MIM, because minimal grinding is required.

I'm sure there will be metallurgical differences, but I would expect them to be small, given the similarities of the processes. Process complexity, however, appears to be similar. I wouldn't expect prices to be dramatically different.

[Red Leader]

I'll wait for consumer testing. The $200+ price of the knives doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, personally. You are competing with products not just like Spyderco's USA-made models, but stuff like the TRM Atom and Neutron for example. Where's the advantage for the consumer if they cost the same and the steel "performs roughly the same"?

Right? That's kinda what I was thinking. Price is going to be a big part of this equation.

If you claim to be able to create a new way to make a steel blade for a knife that highlights the near elimination of waste, while reducing all the labor and supplies that go into the major operation of blade grinding to basically zero, that needs to show up on the consumer endsomewhere. I'd be curious to get a rough breakdown of the various percentages of the costs of making the blade part of a knife. How much is labor, how much is materials? And for labor, how much of it is the grinding? I would imagine a not insignificant amount. Now you've eliminated a large percentage of the labor and supply costs for making the knife blade, but your knife is going to cost the same as the competition. At that point, is it just extra profit generation?

I'm very curious about the tech. Honestly its probably going to be the future if it tests well. If impact resistance and toughness are there, then it might be game over, especially with the near zero waste and time saved by not needing to grind anything.

The flicker/fuller in that design looked a bit sharp and looked like it would collect dirt and debris, especially around the raised Magpul logo. I hope their next iterations account for that. I also wonder how well their finishing on the bearing and pivot surfaces are. The blades popped out looked pretty grainy, which is what I'm used to seeing with MIM. I think a lot of how good these are will be in how much time they spend getting those contact surfaces right.

All that said, I understand when there is new groundbreaking tech, it is always inordinately expensive to start off, so I'm surprised about high prices, but as this gets rolling, I think the prices should more accurately reflect the actual material/labor investment, in a production sense.

[zhyla]

I'll wait for consumer testing. The $200+ price of the knives doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, personally. You are competing with products not just like Spyderco's USA-made models, but stuff like the TRM Atom and Neutron for example.

$189 on BHQ right now. That's $10 cheaper than a Para2. I don't think that's a bad place to start price wise for a USA made knife.

Nothing about the external design itself intrigues me but it does look like a reasonable knife. Magpul has long had a good eye for ergonomics. Who knows, maybe it's a good knife. But the world is littered with knives designed by people that don't know how to design knives.

Where's the advantage for the consumer if they cost the same and the steel "performs roughly the same"?

I am slightly curious about the "hollow-to-flat grind" to be honest. I don't think MIM enables much that you couldn't CNC to the same effect, but sounds like it got them thinking outside the box a little with the grind.

Interesting lock design they got there, seems like it was only possible to do efficiently with MIM.

I can't tell from the block diagram -- is there a spring in there? I don't understand how it works exactly.

I will say this -- I didn't expect an additive process to be this cost effective. Unless they're selling them at cost, this is pretty interesting.

[RazorSharp86]

At $200 no thanks.
As many mentioned, Kershaw made a MIM knife in the mid 2000’s (I thought 07 but somebody mentioned 06).
I don’t believe that performance will compare to traditionally made steels. I know that the mim parts on my firearms often show wear that I consider fairly premature.

I wonder, however, if they can leverage this technology in other ways, making intricate mechanisms and such - as long as they can bring it at a better value.

[Mr Blonde]

Spyderco too has made a MIM knife; the C108 Bi-Fold. Although, IIRC, only the handle was made with MIM-technology. It's a shame that knife never properly came to market due to legal issues (it was considered an automatic). Spyderco could have gained a lot of MIM experience since 2010 or so.

[zhyla]

At $200 no thanks.

I don’t understand the objection to the pricing. It’s cheaper than a Para2. More than I like to pay for knives, but very normal for a USA made folder.

[Naperville]

Cast metal

[bdblue]

Apparently they claim that they used S35VN steel and their test results from CATRA indicated that the blades performed as well and somewhat better than cold rolled or CPM steel.

CATRA is one thing, what about toughness?

[Mk-211]

Wondering how they're getting around the fact that KAI/Kershaw holds the patent.

[aicolainen]

Wondering how they're getting around the fact that KAI/Kershaw holds the patent.

I'm no expert on this, MIM or patents. But unless there is just one way to MIM a knife blade, KAI just holds 'a' patent - not necessarily 'the' patent.

They could also get around it with licensing fees.

[nerdlock]

At $200 no thanks.

I don’t understand the objection to the pricing. It’s cheaper than a Para2. More than I like to pay for knives, but very normal for a USA made folder.

I think it's because upon watching the video, the Magpul reps proudly claim less waste compared to the traditional stock removal/grinding methods and savings on equipment like bits, etc. , so I guess it is implied that savings in production would translate into competitive pricing. It also says in its BladeHQ listing that "Magpul's method is faster and cheaper than conventional blade making, and it's passing the savings on to the customer."

Plus, Magpul is relatively a youngish player in the saturated knife market, and it would benefit them to introduce this knife with a more competitive price.

I also wouldn't risk almost 200$ for a knife made with a relatively untested production method. I'd hate to spend that amount only to find out that the knife cracks easily under normal use.

[zhyla]

I think it's because upon watching the video, the Magpul reps proudly claim less waste compared to the traditional stock removal/grinding methods and savings on equipment like bits, etc. , so I guess it is implied that savings in production would translate into competitive pricing.

That’s the thing. This is very competitive pricing.