VG10 Wear Resistance

[mcsquirgle]

Hey Spyderco folks!

In my spare time lately I have been testing different knife steels edge retention using 1/2" sisal rope over a cutting board. I try and use a specific portion of the edge of a blade (usually the belly-most portion) and try to keep the cuts as consistent as possible into the rope until the edge of the knife will no longer slice paper reliably. I try to test both the stock edge that the knife comes with out of the box, and an edge that I put on myself with my KME fixed angle sharpening system. I try and get those edges as close to 18* degrees per side as possible. If you guys are familiar with Pete from the Cedric & Ada YouTube channel you can probably guess that my tests are inspired by his. I have had some interesting and exciting results so far, I think. I have filmed these tests for my https://youtu.be/KbKHoMqLOFU?si=aLwzgeUdelXfwGiE YouTube channel if anyone is interested in checking them out. These are the cut scores of the different knives I have tested so far.

Spyderco Astute, 8cr13mov, 80 cuts on stock edge, 280 cuts on KME sharpened edge
Al Mar Eagle Ultralight, AUS-8, 340 cuts with KME sharpened edge
Buck Alpha Hunter Select, 420HC, 40 cuts on stock edge, 70 cuts with KME sharpened edge
Spyderco Stretch 2 Lightweight, VG10, 40 cuts on stock edge, 80 cuts with KME sharpened edge

I am a little taken aback by the results of the test of the VG10 on the Spyderco Stretch 2 Lightweight. VG10 is certainly a more complex steel than the 420hc of the Buck Alpha Select, but the results were a bit closer than I expected for the steels.

I am trying to rationalize the results in my head somehow. I know that sisal rope can be quite an abrasive material for any sharpened steel to process, and that maybe VG10 just isn't designed to process that kind of material, but how is it possible that the 8cr13mov and AUS-8 that I have tested with the same material performed so many more cuts before the edge would no longer slice paper reliably? I also realize that I am just some guy in my garage testing my knives on an old cutting board when I can find the time, so I cant expect people to really trust that these results are accurate, repeatable or even useful in any way.

Do any of the results that I am getting in these tests seem accurate to you guys?

[Wartstein]

First and foremost: I am very far from being among the steel- and sharpening experts around here!

That said: I am astonished that Spydercos VG10 is so far behind Spydercos 8CR in your test.
In my own totally unscientific experience it actually should have better edge retention than 8CR...

[Wartstein]

Added to my post above:

VG10 actually having better edge retention than 8CR also shows in Dr Larrin Thomas charts (https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/ ... esistance/)

[mcsquirgle]

First and foremost: I am very far from being among the steel- and sharpening experts around here!

That said: I am astonished that Spydercos VG10 is so far behind Spydercos 8CR in your test.
In my own totally unscientific experience it actually should have better edge retention than 8CR...

This is exactly my reaction! 8cr and AUS-8 are supposed to be very similar metalurgically, so I was satisfied that the testing results for both of those steels came relatively close to eachother, but it seems that VG10 behaves quite a bit differently.

I think that maybe 8cr and AUS-8 have been given a negative reputation as not necessarily being very good performers for wear resistance, but if my test is to be believed ( and im not saying it should be really as I am just a guy in his garage ) they seem to perform better in this specific task.

[mcsquirgle]

Added to my post above:

VG10 actually having better edge retention than 8CR also shows in Dr Larrin Thomas charts (https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/ ... esistance/)

thanks for bringing this chart to my attention! now that I look at it and see it, I wonder if what is happening in my test of VG10 is that the lower toughness of the VG10 is resulting in micro-chipping or rolling of the edge and that is causing it to no longer slice the paper at 80 cuts. its not necessarily that the edge is wearing away, its just that it is deforming due to less toughness

[weeping minora]

Sounds most likely to be a sharpening mishap(s) at play here.

Could also be a blade geometry issue, with the Astute and Eagle having thinner BTE geometry, thusly enhancing the cutting performance versus perhaps a thicker BTE geometry of the Alpha and Stretch. This information is hugely important in overall performance, and can/will drastically change these numbers. The geometry does not increase edge retention, but it does increase cutting performance. Think razor blade vs axe; which will slice media more effectively? Personally, I've never held and Astute, but I do know that the Al Mar Eagle I have experience with was much thinner BTE than any Stretch, or Buck that I've experienced.

Onto my initial hunch; how comfortable are you with sharpening? Is this the factory, and subsequent first sharpened edge for all of these knives? Are you running the same sharpening progression with each knife/steel? Are you using too much, or too little pressure in sharpening? Do you strop after sharpening? Are you making any adjustments in your stropping that differ from your sharpening angle? What type of medium are you stropping on and with what compounds/progressions are you using, if applicable? Are you adept enough in sharpening to know when a burr is, and isn't fully removed?

There's a plethora of information left off of-the-table to know exactly what is "going wrong". 8Cr/AUS8 is no slouch of a steel when done right, and is hugely undervalued by the super steel nerds .

[weeping minora]

Added to my post above:

VG10 actually having better edge retention than 8CR also shows in Dr Larrin Thomas charts (https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/ ... esistance/)

thanks for bringing this chart to my attention! now that I look at it and see it, I wonder if what is happening in my test of VG10 is that the lower toughness of the VG10 is resulting in micro-chipping or rolling of the edge and that is causing it to no longer slice the paper at 80 cuts. its not necessarily that the edge is wearing away, its just that it is deforming due to less toughness

This would be more equatable to less strength, and not particularly less toughness. Slicing rope isn't really testing the shock resistance of the edge, it's testing the stability of the edge. 8Cr/AUS8 has less carbide content, and perhaps could be harder (HRC) than the example of VG-10 that you have. More carbide content can cause edge stability problems, especially so if the steel is ran "soft". There are also potential issues of Retained Austenite, but that's another issue. I would instead just use the knives as you plan to, and after getting a few more sharpenings under their belts, see if their behaviors don't start to change a bit, and improve in your Stretch.

[mcsquirgle]

Sounds most likely to be a sharpening mishap(s) at play here.

Could also be a blade geometry issue, with the Astute and Eagle having thinner BTE geometry, thusly enhancing the cutting performance versus perhaps a thicker BTE geometry of the Alpha and Stretch. This information is hugely important in overall performance, and can/will drastically change these numbers. The geometry does not increase edge retention, but it does increase cutting performance. Think razor blade vs axe; which will slice media more effectively? Personally, I've never held and Astute, but I do know that the Al Mar Eagle I have experience with was much thinner BTE than any Stretch, or Buck that I've experienced.

Onto my initial hunch; how comfortable are you with sharpening? Is this the factory, and subsequent first sharpened edge for all of these knives? Are you running the same sharpening progression with each knife/steel? Are you using too much, or too little pressure in sharpening? Do you strop after sharpening? Are you making any adjustments in your stropping that differ from your sharpening angle? What type of medium are you stropping on and with what compounds/progressions are you using, if applicable? Are you adept enough in sharpening to know when a burr is, and isn't fully removed?

There's a plethora of information left off of-the-table to know exactly what is "going wrong". 8Cr/AUS8 is no slouch of a steel when done right, and is hugely undervalued by the super steel nerds .

Blade geometry definitely comes to mind as a potential culprit. The Astute and Eagle both are thinner BTE than the Stretch 2, but the Stretch is not a knife that I would consider thick BTE. Also the Buck Alpha Select has a really nice hollow grind and comes to a remarkably thin edge, but it is likely thicker than the Astute and Eagle. The Eagle Ultralight is perhaps one of the thinnest knives BTE I have ever cut with.

I am pretty comfortable with sharpening at this point. I have been using the KME for years now. My sharpening progression for all these knives for this test is the same for all the knives. I use the KME diamond stones at 140, 300, 600, and 1500 grit, then I use my stropping progression with some leather paddle strops with gunny juice stropping emulsion at 6, 3, and 1 micron. The tests are indeed done on the factory edge and the first subsequent sharpened edge for all the knives except on the AL MAR Eagle ultralight because that one came to me with an edge that I couldnt be sure was factory. I cant say for sure I am using too much or too little pressure when sharpening. I have been able to get good results from this exact sharpening and stropping progression in the past. the same progression that got the 280 cut result for 8cr13mov got me the 80 cut result from the VG10, but I may be biased to say that. Id like to think that I am a competent sharpener, especially with this system.

[weeping minora]

Sounds most likely to be a sharpening mishap(s) at play here.

Could also be a blade geometry issue, with the Astute and Eagle having thinner BTE geometry, thusly enhancing the cutting performance versus perhaps a thicker BTE geometry of the Alpha and Stretch. This information is hugely important in overall performance, and can/will drastically change these numbers. The geometry does not increase edge retention, but it does increase cutting performance. Think razor blade vs axe; which will slice media more effectively? Personally, I've never held and Astute, but I do know that the Al Mar Eagle I have experience with was much thinner BTE than any Stretch, or Buck that I've experienced.

Onto my initial hunch; how comfortable are you with sharpening? Is this the factory, and subsequent first sharpened edge for all of these knives? Are you running the same sharpening progression with each knife/steel? Are you using too much, or too little pressure in sharpening? Do you strop after sharpening? Are you making any adjustments in your stropping that differ from your sharpening angle? What type of medium are you stropping on and with what compounds/progressions are you using, if applicable? Are you adept enough in sharpening to know when a burr is, and isn't fully removed?

There's a plethora of information left off of-the-table to know exactly what is "going wrong". 8Cr/AUS8 is no slouch of a steel when done right, and is hugely undervalued by the super steel nerds .

Blade geometry definitely comes to mind as a potential culprit. The Astute and Eagle both are thinner BTE than the Stretch 2, but the Stretch is not a knife that I would consider thick BTE. Also the Buck Alpha Select has a really nice hollow grind and comes to a remarkably thin edge, but it is likely thicker than the Astute and Eagle. The Eagle Ultralight is perhaps one of the thinnest knives BTE I have ever cut with.

I am pretty comfortable with sharpening at this point. I have been using the KME for years now. My sharpening progression for all these knives for this test is the same for all the knives. I use the KME diamond stones at 140, 300, 600, and 1500 grit, then I use my stropping progression with some leather paddle strops with gunny juice stropping emulsion at 6, 3, and 1 micron. The tests are indeed done on the factory edge and the first subsequent sharpened edge for all the knives except on the AL MAR Eagle ultralight because that one came to me with an edge that I couldnt be sure was factory. I cant say for sure I am using too much or too little pressure when sharpening. I have been able to get good results from this exact sharpening and stropping progression in the past. the same progression that got the 280 cut result for 8cr13mov got me the 80 cut result from the VG10, but I may be biased to say that. Id like to think that I am a competent sharpener, especially with this system.

If you've got your sharpening on lock-down and you really feel the need to get to-the-bottom of this, I'd suggest running the Stretch through this test a couple more times to see if there isn't a vast improvement over say, three additional runs. Even exceptional sharpeners can have an off day/session, so I wouldn't sweat it unless the results truly don't improve in any noticeable way.

[mcsquirgle]

Sounds most likely to be a sharpening mishap(s) at play here.

Could also be a blade geometry issue, with the Astute and Eagle having thinner BTE geometry, thusly enhancing the cutting performance versus perhaps a thicker BTE geometry of the Alpha and Stretch. This information is hugely important in overall performance, and can/will drastically change these numbers. The geometry does not increase edge retention, but it does increase cutting performance. Think razor blade vs axe; which will slice media more effectively? Personally, I've never held and Astute, but I do know that the Al Mar Eagle I have experience with was much thinner BTE than any Stretch, or Buck that I've experienced.

Onto my initial hunch; how comfortable are you with sharpening? Is this the factory, and subsequent first sharpened edge for all of these knives? Are you running the same sharpening progression with each knife/steel? Are you using too much, or too little pressure in sharpening? Do you strop after sharpening? Are you making any adjustments in your stropping that differ from your sharpening angle? What type of medium are you stropping on and with what compounds/progressions are you using, if applicable? Are you adept enough in sharpening to know when a burr is, and isn't fully removed?

There's a plethora of information left off of-the-table to know exactly what is "going wrong". 8Cr/AUS8 is no slouch of a steel when done right, and is hugely undervalued by the super steel nerds .

Blade geometry definitely comes to mind as a potential culprit. The Astute and Eagle both are thinner BTE than the Stretch 2, but the Stretch is not a knife that I would consider thick BTE. Also the Buck Alpha Select has a really nice hollow grind and comes to a remarkably thin edge, but it is likely thicker than the Astute and Eagle. The Eagle Ultralight is perhaps one of the thinnest knives BTE I have ever cut with.

I am pretty comfortable with sharpening at this point. I have been using the KME for years now. My sharpening progression for all these knives for this test is the same for all the knives. I use the KME diamond stones at 140, 300, 600, and 1500 grit, then I use my stropping progression with some leather paddle strops with gunny juice stropping emulsion at 6, 3, and 1 micron. The tests are indeed done on the factory edge and the first subsequent sharpened edge for all the knives except on the AL MAR Eagle ultralight because that one came to me with an edge that I couldnt be sure was factory. I cant say for sure I am using too much or too little pressure when sharpening. I have been able to get good results from this exact sharpening and stropping progression in the past. the same progression that got the 280 cut result for 8cr13mov got me the 80 cut result from the VG10, but I may be biased to say that. Id like to think that I am a competent sharpener, especially with this system.

If you've got your sharpening on lock-down and you really feel the need to get to-the-bottom of this, I'd suggest running the Stretch through this test a couple more times to see if there isn't a vast improvement over say, three additional runs. Even exceptional sharpeners can have an off day/session, so I wouldn't sweat it unless the results truly don't improve in any noticeable way.

I think its fair to say that it could be a sharpening issue and I appreciate the feedback and the recommendations. I'm planning on trying it again, but I might adjust my angles a little bit this time and make the edge angle a steeper 20* DPS and test it again. at least that is my plan for now. I figure in theory that could make the edge more stable.(?)

[weeping minora]

Sounds most likely to be a sharpening mishap(s) at play here.

Could also be a blade geometry issue, with the Astute and Eagle having thinner BTE geometry, thusly enhancing the cutting performance versus perhaps a thicker BTE geometry of the Alpha and Stretch. This information is hugely important in overall performance, and can/will drastically change these numbers. The geometry does not increase edge retention, but it does increase cutting performance. Think razor blade vs axe; which will slice media more effectively? Personally, I've never held and Astute, but I do know that the Al Mar Eagle I have experience with was much thinner BTE than any Stretch, or Buck that I've experienced.

Onto my initial hunch; how comfortable are you with sharpening? Is this the factory, and subsequent first sharpened edge for all of these knives? Are you running the same sharpening progression with each knife/steel? Are you using too much, or too little pressure in sharpening? Do you strop after sharpening? Are you making any adjustments in your stropping that differ from your sharpening angle? What type of medium are you stropping on and with what compounds/progressions are you using, if applicable? Are you adept enough in sharpening to know when a burr is, and isn't fully removed?

There's a plethora of information left off of-the-table to know exactly what is "going wrong". 8Cr/AUS8 is no slouch of a steel when done right, and is hugely undervalued by the super steel nerds .

Blade geometry definitely comes to mind as a potential culprit. The Astute and Eagle both are thinner BTE than the Stretch 2, but the Stretch is not a knife that I would consider thick BTE. Also the Buck Alpha Select has a really nice hollow grind and comes to a remarkably thin edge, but it is likely thicker than the Astute and Eagle. The Eagle Ultralight is perhaps one of the thinnest knives BTE I have ever cut with.

I am pretty comfortable with sharpening at this point. I have been using the KME for years now. My sharpening progression for all these knives for this test is the same for all the knives. I use the KME diamond stones at 140, 300, 600, and 1500 grit, then I use my stropping progression with some leather paddle strops with gunny juice stropping emulsion at 6, 3, and 1 micron. The tests are indeed done on the factory edge and the first subsequent sharpened edge for all the knives except on the AL MAR Eagle ultralight because that one came to me with an edge that I couldnt be sure was factory. I cant say for sure I am using too much or too little pressure when sharpening. I have been able to get good results from this exact sharpening and stropping progression in the past. the same progression that got the 280 cut result for 8cr13mov got me the 80 cut result from the VG10, but I may be biased to say that. Id like to think that I am a competent sharpener, especially with this system.

If you've got your sharpening on lock-down and you really feel the need to get to-the-bottom of this, I'd suggest running the Stretch through this test a couple more times to see if there isn't a vast improvement over say, three additional runs. Even exceptional sharpeners can have an off day/session, so I wouldn't sweat it unless the results truly don't improve in any noticeable way.

I think its fair to say that it could be a sharpening issue and I appreciate the feedback and the recommendations. I'm planning on trying it again, but I might adjust my angles a little bit this time and make the edge angle a steeper 20* DPS and test it again. at least that is my plan for now. I figure in theory that could make the edge more stable.(?)

Of all the variables listed, I would first continue with your current ~18° edge, however, stopping your sharpening after your 600 grit stone. You can still strop at 6/3/1 without issue, or detriment to the edge. This will increase edge aggression, and should boost the performance results, and overall feeling through the rope. 18° is quite thick, though it does seem to do well for many folks. Proceed as you wish, but it will take more effort (and steel removal) to thin an edge, than to thicken it.

Much of the excitement is figuring out what works best for you. Let us know your results.

[zhyla]

If you don’t have the same blade geometry the results can’t be compared.

[Steeltoez83]

As another knife cut tester I look forward to reading about your findings. I have made adjustments in my own testing over the years. Even when I did do sisal rope cutting, I was making tweaks constantly. Lots of good ideas in this thread to explore.

[arty]

I have a lot of knives in VG10 and they vary a great deal in how hard the steel is. I have one, a Rookie, that has steel that seems too soft, but all the others are fine. A properly heat-treated and sharpened knife in VG10 will hold an edge better than 440C and close to XHP. It is possible to make the steel too hard, and then edges will chip and breakdown. This is the case for any steel that I have used. There is no way that a “normal” VG10 blade will be anyway near 420HC. There is just no comparison.

[vivi]

Sounds most likely to be a sharpening mishap(s) at play here.

Could also be a blade geometry issue, with the Astute and Eagle having thinner BTE geometry, thusly enhancing the cutting performance versus perhaps a thicker BTE geometry of the Alpha and Stretch. This information is hugely important in overall performance, and can/will drastically change these numbers. The geometry does not increase edge retention, but it does increase cutting performance. Think razor blade vs axe; which will slice media more effectively? Personally, I've never held and Astute, but I do know that the Al Mar Eagle I have experience with was much thinner BTE than any Stretch, or Buck that I've experienced.

Onto my initial hunch; how comfortable are you with sharpening? Is this the factory, and subsequent first sharpened edge for all of these knives? Are you running the same sharpening progression with each knife/steel? Are you using too much, or too little pressure in sharpening? Do you strop after sharpening? Are you making any adjustments in your stropping that differ from your sharpening angle? What type of medium are you stropping on and with what compounds/progressions are you using, if applicable? Are you adept enough in sharpening to know when a burr is, and isn't fully removed?

There's a plethora of information left off of-the-table to know exactly what is "going wrong". 8Cr/AUS8 is no slouch of a steel when done right, and is hugely undervalued by the super steel nerds .

Blade geometry definitely comes to mind as a potential culprit. The Astute and Eagle both are thinner BTE than the Stretch 2, but the Stretch is not a knife that I would consider thick BTE. Also the Buck Alpha Select has a really nice hollow grind and comes to a remarkably thin edge, but it is likely thicker than the Astute and Eagle. The Eagle Ultralight is perhaps one of the thinnest knives BTE I have ever cut with.

I am pretty comfortable with sharpening at this point. I have been using the KME for years now. My sharpening progression for all these knives for this test is the same for all the knives. I use the KME diamond stones at 140, 300, 600, and 1500 grit, then I use my stropping progression with some leather paddle strops with gunny juice stropping emulsion at 6, 3, and 1 micron. The tests are indeed done on the factory edge and the first subsequent sharpened edge for all the knives except on the AL MAR Eagle ultralight because that one came to me with an edge that I couldnt be sure was factory. I cant say for sure I am using too much or too little pressure when sharpening. I have been able to get good results from this exact sharpening and stropping progression in the past. the same progression that got the 280 cut result for 8cr13mov got me the 80 cut result from the VG10, but I may be biased to say that. Id like to think that I am a competent sharpener, especially with this system.

If you've got your sharpening on lock-down and you really feel the need to get to-the-bottom of this, I'd suggest running the Stretch through this test a couple more times to see if there isn't a vast improvement over say, three additional runs. Even exceptional sharpeners can have an off day/session, so I wouldn't sweat it unless the results truly don't improve in any noticeable way.

I think its fair to say that it could be a sharpening issue and I appreciate the feedback and the recommendations. I'm planning on trying it again, but I might adjust my angles a little bit this time and make the edge angle a steeper 20* DPS and test it again. at least that is my plan for now. I figure in theory that could make the edge more stable.(?)

If you're trying to optimize the edge for repetitive rope cutting, I'd suggest stopping at 300 grit and going down to 12 degrees per side or so.

Your edges are significantly thicker and more polished than you'd want for rope cutting. Coarse edges are more efficient for this job and the task does not require thick edge geometry. Cut rope with a box cutter or paring knife if you want proof.

Now if you're just putting on general purpose edges like you'd use on an EDC, then I understand.

Plus, using the edges I described would mean a lot more work for you, as they'd cut 4x the amount of rope before becoming too dull for the work.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

We need more data?

[navin johnson]

The test needs to be done at least three times to make any kind of conclusions

VG10 finishes well and has certain desirable characteristics for the average person. It’s nothing special in terms of edge retention or toughness

Also, putting on a “special edge” for a test is kind of meaningless also, unless that’s the only thing you intend to do with the knife

[Scandi Grind]

Based on my experiences with VG-10 so far, I am not super surprised it didn't last very long at that level of refinement, I think a toothier edge would have much improved results. However I am surprised that 8cr would be notably better. I would say that if you had run the 8cr toothy and the VG-10 polished the discrepancy would have seemed possible, but not if they were both run with the same refinement. I think Larrin Thomas runs coarse or medium grit edges in his tests, so that is one thing to keep in mind when looking at his results.

I'd be curious to see what happens if you just run the same test again for more data.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

VG10 has less corrosion resistance than 1.4116?

[Cycletroll]

Don't change any other variables and run the test again three times and see what happens