440C & FRN USA Made Value Line

[vivi]

I've been messing around with a lot of lower end steels lately.

420HC, AUS8, whatever steel Victorinox & carbon Opinels use, carbon V Case, etc.

What I've found is for me these steels do just about everything well besides hold an edge a long time while cutting abrasive materials.

Which is fine because I don't break down a warehouse full of cardboard every week, and I enjoy sharpening my knives. Weekly touch-ups are no big deal to me.

These steels sharpen incredibly fast and easily. They're tough and never chip out on me. They resist corrosion very well. They hold thin geometry well. They're inexpensive.


Though, they tend to burr a bit more than harder steels - but with good sharpening technique it's 100% a non-issue.

With the price trends as they are, I've been wondering just how low Golden CO Spyderco models could go in price if the overall quality remained the same, but less expensive materials were used.

Let's take a look at knifeworks and see what they're charging for Native Chiefs as an example.

G10 & S30V Chief - $213.99

FRN & BD1N Chief - $153.75

That's a pretty substantial difference. $60 off.

Could the price go any lower if 440C was used? 420HC?

Personally I'm not a steel snob. I like those steels. I'm happy with them.

If I could get a 420HC & FRN Military 2 for $130.99 instead of the G10 & S30V model for $210.99, I would choose that version.

Don't get me wrong. I like G10. I like S30V. But if there were a budget version of all the Golden models for substantially less, I would choose those versions.

There's another company that does this. They'll make an FRN & AUS series version, and a G10 and CPM steel version. The basic models are usually $30-70 while the higher end ones are usually $130-200. I can't think of a single folding knife from them where I've bought the premium version when both options are available.

Manix XL's will probably never regularly sell for under $200 again. But maybe this wonderful design could be made at a more accessible ~$125, which was about what they originally sold for, if it were made with FRN & 440C?

I dunno. Just something I've been thinking about. I've been messing around with a USA made knife with FRN handles and a 4" 420HC blade tonight. I paid a whopping $25 for it. Makes me wonder what Spydercos Golden CO models would sell for made out of similar materials.

I don't expect this idea to be popular. Both Spyderco and their fans seem to be super steel fans. And that's fine. Super steels are cool. I like them too.

But like I said, I'm happy using basic steels like 440C and 1095. They sharpen fast, take a great edge, work well with thin angles and can take some abuse.

Plus, the steel nerd side of my brain wants to see how these basic steels would perform with Spydercos excellent heat treating protocols. I've considered getting a Cat just for that reason.

Edit: Holy. excuse all the edits, lol. so many typos. slow down, vivi.....

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I second this. The 440C and FRN Seki made knives were great. I would love to see Spyderco make a quality budget line with these. 420 HC is great, too, when heat treated right.

[u.w.]

As seems to be the case more times than not, I agree with you.

I've long been a fan of 440C with a good heat treat. I've used it in a few different platforms, from Chinese folders to my Entrek Scandi Bushcrafter fixed blade; and have not only have zero complaints with it, but will quickly give it praise.
Same with various other steels like 1095, 01, A2, 12C&14C Sandviks. Good heat treat, and good geometry - Oh yeah, they work great.
I don't have really any time with 420HC, so can't speak to it.
Another I've used and like a lot is AUS8A with a good heat treat and thin geometry, it's pretty dang nice.

u.w.

[zhyla]

But if there were a budget version of all the Golden models for substantially less, I would choose those versions.

I think just looking at the Native Chief G-10 vs LW prices, the lower end materials is not going to you there.

Maybe if they wanted to design a model specifically to be a low cost USA made knife they could do it. I don't know. That kind of was what the original Native was, wasn't it? Things have changed a lot though.

As Sal said in another thread, they'll build whatever people want to buy. I think it's natural their Golden production lines will keep making $200-$300 knives as long as people are willing to buy enough of them. It makes sense, especially if you are production limited like they always seem to be (outside looking in at least).

[Doc Dan]

440 C is what gave buck its wonderful reputation for holding an edge. They ran it hard. I know there are quite a few people here on this forum that would like to see 14C28n.

[RyanY]

Is there really a large price difference in terms of materials or tooling between BD1N and 440C? I imagine performance would be hard to differentiate as well. I could be wrong but I doubt you save a lot of money on that switch alone and you run into the stigma that has come up against 440C mostly from bad heat treats in cheap knives.

[TomH]

I agree with Vivi's comments on steels. I don't need a super steel. However, like RyanY, I wonder how the steel choices affect the actual cost of knive production.

[PaloArt]

Absolutely agree with this. 14C28N, 12C27MOD, 440C (well heat treated), all these steels are fine for me. Opinel NO9 12C27MOD outcuts my ZDP189 Endura just due to the blade geometry (Opinel is very thin behind the edge and thinner in stock). I think I`ve put my Opinels through harder cutting than my Spyderco knives. If there would be a bit lower end steel, well heat treated and Spyderco would start making a bit thinner knives BTE and in overall stock, I do believe those would outcut much more expensive, thicker counterparts. Other good point is price and it would be fantastic if there would be some affordable Made in Colorado piece (Kershaw is able to do that for example, I just don`t like their design), Spyderco is able to make UKPK made in US for decent price... Perhaps interesting project for Sal\Eric?

[JSumm]

As far as the steel goes, I am with you if it saves a lot of $. It is hard for me to believe that it would be a substantial difference from BD1N, but I honestly have no idea.

Personally, I like interesting scale material. So from a different perspective, I would love to see some upgraded scale material and new designs, with a more budget oriented steel.

I know there are a group of people that need high wear resistant steels and Spyderco is definitely the go to company for that. But for whatever reason, there seems to be a high demand for higher end steels for blades that may never be pushed to the limits. Maybe because the skill of sharpening is being lost? For a blade that sees a lot of work (but not abrasive material work) these budget steels (done well) perform great.

[Aladinsane]

I’m right there with you! As I have said before, I’m not a steel guy, mostly because of ignorance, so if I can get a reasonably good steel at a good price, then I’m in! Price is very important to me, so if the overall quality is great then I don’t have a problem with a little extra sharpening.

[Naperville]

It is true that 440c may not be that much better/worse than what is being used at the low end of edge retention right now.

Does everyone have a sharpener?

Would it be crazy to bundle a knife and sharpener together for a lower price than they retail for individually?

Might be an idea to consider.

[Nestor]

Don’t want to be an overly dramatic here, especially after I’ve just bought the most expensive Spyderco knife in my entire collection, but I feel increasingly alienated from the knife market lately. Not only I have a hard time to find decently priced knives that I like, but also I don’t want those high end steels that are recently becoming mainstream.
I fully support this idea, because I never had any need for all those supersteels in the first place.
I have a hard time to justify paying more for something that I don’t really need nor want.
S30V is already a bit too difficult to sharpen for me, so anything with even more edge retention is probably overkill here.
440C, 14C28N or BD1N would all be fine for me.
Yes, I would be interested.

[zhyla]

Not only I have a hard time to find decently priced knives that I like,

We are living in a crazy time where there are thousands of well designed, expertly designed knives priced under $100. It’s really insane. You may just not know where to look. The options are overwhelming.

I think a lot of us are feeling the Spyderco pricing and coping in various ways. I am able to purchase any Spyderco I want to, but I simply don’t want to carry a $200 knife. It kind of ruins it for me.

There are some bright spots out there. The Astute is an absolute winner and I carry it about 50/50 with the Chap LW the other half. If everybody went out and bought an Astute, that might get Spyderco’s attention.

[Nestor]

We are living in a crazy time where there are thousands of well designed, expertly designed knives priced under $100. It’s really insane. You may just not know where to look. The options are overwhelming.

…or perhaps we just have different definitions of what we are looking for within that price range? For example I would not buy a linerlock knife…nor will I consider a Chinese knife at this point…and yes, perhaps I am quite spoiled…but I feel like the lower end steels are underrepresented in the American made knives. Regards.

[aicolainen]

I think I like where this discussion is going.

In many areas of business, it seems like catering to a price focused target audience will often turn into a race to the bottom. I don't want to see that happen with knives. But a race toward best value, without sacrificing QC, HSE and worker compensation would be super interesting.
The marketplace seem to have settled on a model where knife enthusiast are encouraged to nerd out over over the top materials and outlandish finishes that were never ment to see real work. I couldn't care less. Fit and function is where it's at. I'm not confident enough in the business conduct of Chinese companies (especially those who have existed for 15 minutes) to go play in that sandbox, but if reputable makers from US and EU etc. would dare to challenge the Chinese on plain old value without throwing their core values overboard - there would be a whole new and very interesting category to nerd out over.

FRN is overall my favorite handle material anyways and I mostly consider linerless to be a pro, and while I'm curious to try new steels I've never been a steel snob. I don't care what the name of the steel is, if there's a steel that fits well with Spyderco's process, such that they can acquire it at a good price and make it perform to its best potential with very low failure rate - I'm in.
Design a knife from first principles where basically every atom is chosen and arranged based on production process and how much performance can be achieved vs cost at scale.

[endura3]

I think this is a really interesting idea. As others have said, I'm not sure changing the blade steel would be sufficient to lower costs on a US-made budget knife though.

Manufacturing costs can be broken down into 3 categories:

-direct materials (blade steel, handle materials, etc.)

-direct labor costs (wages and benefits for everyone who directly works on the manufacturing process)

-Manufacturing overhead (all indirect costs like equipment depreciation, maintanence, supervisory staff salaries, etc.)

For US-made products like knives, the direct materials are usually a comparatively small part of the overall cost. Labor is the big one, so creating an effective US-made budget knife would require lowering labor cost inputs for the knife substantially. You can't just pay employees less, so the only way to do this is by streamlining the manufacturing process to minimize labor inputs like manual assembly, QA, the machining steps required, and so on.

This requires simplifying both the product and the manufacturing steps. What steps could spyderco take to simplify a linerless FRN knife with an affordable steel like the Native Chief LW in BD1N? You could get some marginal cost decrease by switching to another steel, but BD1N is already pretty cheap. You could simplify the handle design to minimize the complexity of the molds and the labor cost of assembly, say by using a 1-piece FRN mold with a simpler grip pattern. That could save a few bucks too. Another big one would be streamlining the QA process for the product line, but then of course you need to be comfortable with the resultant product.

Spyderco has also been making extensive capital investments like the new factory they're working on. Those costs go into manufacturing overhead and have to be accounted for, otherwise you're still effectively selling your product at a loss. Advanced manufacturing processes can significantly streamline production, but they're also expensive to implement.

This is all to say that I'm not sure Spyderco has all that much room to bring prices down. I'd guess you could probably make a US-made knife the size of a native with a cheap steel, thin blade, minimal materials, streamlined assembly and QA process, and really simple FRN design that would cost right around $100-$110 today. But it wouldn't go to market today, and who knows if the initial price target would be realistic in 2 years once all the design and manufacturing details were worked out?

Since you're already making design and QA sacrifices that foreign manufacturers don't have to make in order to account for your labor costs, it's inherently a risk. I have no doubt spyderco has the manufacturing chops to do something like this, but the process and design would have to be perfect (which all costs money to figure out) and there would be a lot of design constraints.

That all being said, I would be into it for sure! I have no issue with foreign knives but love US manufacturing and would happily support this kind of effort.

[sal]

Interesting thought Vivi. Something of which we are always well aware. Though I question a USA made quality knife for $25, lower costs are always a consideration. That's why we have FRN Chief's made with BD1N.

With the Chinese Yuan being 1/6th the value of a US dollar, that realm would indeed be challenging to reach, made in the US. We, as well as our competitors are always thinking of ways to offer the "Economy" models, which we have been doing since we began making knives.

FRN Tooling is very expensive in the US and we really have to be sure that a model will survive the high FRN tooling costs before investing.

I will say that Eric has been working on just such a design for several years and is getting close.

We probably won't use much 440C. We did a lot of testing with 440C and found that it doesn't do well with very thin edges. BD1N is probably the lowest we would go for blade material. 420HC is used for handles and locks.

Although, as a high performance company, we will have a minimum standard, FRN and a blade steel, and we will always have the higher end materials for those that wish to have that.

sal

[Nestor]

Awesome news! Looking forward to seeing more in the future. Thank You Sir.

[zhyla]

We don’t mind putting them together ourselves Sal

[Flash]

440 C isn’t something that particularly excites me, maybe Ive seen it on one too many lemons or meh knives over the years, and I think it’s microstructure is inferior for a low edge geometry knife compared to similar low cost / non-PM steels…

I’d be happy with a budget line featuring steels like 14C28N, AEB-L and Nitro-V.

Heat treatment tests show that AEB-L for example can achieve 63+ HRc for high strength and edge stability yet cost less in abrasives/ machining than powder metallurgy steels. This saving can be passed onto the customer with a minimal detriment to edge performance.
I’m surprised Spyderco doesn’t utilise this steel more because it’s brilliant stuff by most accounts.