Get me excited about M398

[Steeltoez83]

I probably should create my own thread for my own testing of mules and other knives. However I will keep it centered around spyderco products unless given permission. The first thing I do is measure the overall cutting edge no matter which knife I'm testing. Right now it happens to be cpm154 at 64 hrc, but it's a non spyderco product. I use sanding rolls as my abrasive media for a few reasons. First I can atleast attempt to balance the workload across the entire apex. Second I can cut in the air and avoid external detractors. Third I can set myself apart from other testers. There are 3 sized sanding rolls I buy from red label abrasives. For edge lengths around 65 mm and under such as the delica or ukpk I use the 1 inch roll. At 66 to 94mm I use the 1.5 inch rolls. The military 1 is right at that ceiling in that weight class. And for the 2 inch roll I move up to 125 mm which allows me to test large folders and some smaller kitchen knives like pettys and pairers. I use this notepad drawing as my guideline to properly place the testing knife in the appropriate class. With testing this way I feel every knife is represented fairly. As the knife proceeds thru testing I evaluate where I acquire the incision point but that's another topic for another day. I have seen other testers tape off sections to adhere to their own test standards. I think it's just easier to structure testing this way. Especially if your testing finished products instead of steel squares.

[sal]

Hi Steeltoes,

Thanx for sharing. great stuff. One of the beauties and real reward of others testing. If possible, some pics of the actual test would be great.

As far as other companies go, probably best to just post Spyderco here on this forum. Thank you for your kind understanding and cooperation.

sal

[Steeltoez83]

Sure thing Sal. I'm working on gathering test data on the cts b70p mule along with a commentary to hopefully explain my testing style with better clarity. My picture game ain't the greatest but I will do my best to explain the reason behind everything I do.

[sal]

Thanx Steeltoes.

Hey Jas,

No problem. Kristi kept me in the loop. We're OK.

sal

[Steeltoez83]

I have probably ran close to 600 different experiments over the last 10 years so it would be near impossible to provide everything I've accumulated over the years. Some testing styles were ditched in favor of others, but that happens when 1 tries to constantly improve. I do like maxamet BTW. It was part of my rust testing cycle I did 8 or 9 months ago. I used 2 coats of chapstick and soaked my manix in rain water for 8 hours a day for a week. I reapplied the coatings everyday and repeated that test. First time I've ever kept rainwater in my crockpot for a week but there is a first for everything I suppose.

[sal]

Hey Steeltoes,

Appreciate the dedicaton.

sal
____________________________________________________________________________________

"Continual improvent is our evolutionary obligation to humankind".

[Steeltoez83]

Thanks Jason and Sal.

I chose rainwater mostly for accessibility and cost. I imagined a worker being stuck outside in the rain during his shift with a rust prone steel in his pocket. It's an extremely cheap style of testing to replicate as well. The Salt series does indeed have a place in the market. However I made the claim about chapstick for years before actually truly testing it. A simple tube of chapstick and a daily routine care system is all that's required for the most part. Since all tap water is pulled from all different types of aquifers and pulled to treatment plants and goes thru different treatments depending on the setup for each plant. I figured it was just easier to use rainwater to keep it simple for the average person. Deep diving into trihalomethanine formations during water treatment cycles has a way of making most ppl exit stage left anyways. I like to keep my testing on the budget side and relatable to the average person.

[sal]

Hey Steeltoes,

How do you collect the rainwater? Have you done any Ph testing on the rainwater? Ph testers are pretty cheap. I think i'll get s new Ph tester and start testing rainwater myself. I remember all of the "scares" about acid rain.

sal

[Steeltoez83]

Just 2 empty 5 gallon buckets left out in the rain Sal. I was doing some stonework in the backyard at that time, so once I had a rainy day I had something to look forward to. We have 2 of those pH digital testers at work. And I edc a bottle of pH strips when I'm out in the field. Most pool chemical stores offer free pH testing by me. Bcuz Chlorine becomes effective in pool water around a 7.2 to 7.6 if I remember right.

[Steeltoez83]

It was either rainwater or drano and I went with rainwater. If or when I choose to use the drano to study its effects on steels I'd reach out to them first to see where in line they are in process efficiency. Lean 6 sigma is 3.4 deviations per 1 million opportunities. And I'd like to hear they hit atleast a 3 or a 4. I could make a solution with the chemicals at work but the spirit of my testing is for accessibility to replicate testing by anyone willing to Plus I can also dispose of hazardous materials once I'm done testing at my current job.

[sal]

Sal, I hope that we got our misunderstandings corrected and that you had a great Easter, same to everyone else here. I'm just going to try to stick with explaining science to people who have questions and try not to be uhh. Dialectical.
Jas

Hi Jas,

I should probably warn you that some of us believe (me included) that "Science" is not always accurate or can be trusted. Time and new knowledge has changed much of science, just in my lifetime. (eg; numbers of chromosomes, what killed the dinosaurs, etc.). Also, many that portray "science" are often wrong, or downright lie (scientists, politicians & news media) about results in order to manipulate.

This makes "proving" science as an argument, challenging. So here, in my opinion, we are dealing with opinion. I hope that doesn't frustrate you? Many here like to prove things for themselves. Youtube reviewers are an example. Many of us have a problem with irrational authority.

Also I have no problem with the "dialectic". Socrates is one of my mentors.

sal

[TkoK83Spy]

This thread just gets stranger and stranger by the minute, who are these dudes!?!

[sal]

Hi TkoK83Spy,

I guess we'll see in time?

Hey Jason,

Interesting history. I would guess most folks here have an interesting history. Life is a "Long and winding road".

Hope Mike' gets well quickly.

I guess we're getting a bit off topic here?

sal

[sal]

Hey Jas,

Already 9 pages of chat about it. You may want to begin at page 1 and catch up on the conversation.

sal

[Ramonade]

You're talking about knowing stuff but when speaking with an entire community of people with very different levels of knowledge/culture on the subject, it can't really bring a lot to the discussion if you do not have a way to vulgarize or explain what you know as facts. That might be one of the reason people don't engage much in the discussion.

I can't tell if my sentence makes any sense, sorry, but that's something I've wanted to say since you arrived here. For a french guy like me it's kinda hard to understand everything you're saying because your prose style seems to be close to the "stream of consciousness". But I'm sure that this is only a "me" problem !

[Steeltoez83]

We probably should have made multiple threads here. Thread dedicated to the theoretical and physical evaluations of this steel. I don't work for spyderco and I don't tell them what recipe to follow in terms of heat treat. I can provide my own experiences to assist with their overall evaluations on the sample I have. I try to do that with every mule team I own bcuz that's what was asked of me. M398 compares to s110V thru the mileage and testing I have done personally. I think keeping the edge angle at 15-17 dps is the best in terms of overall stability and performance. On 2 week dedicated carries of my m398 mule I'd touch mine up every few days on the the red dmt diafold sharpener I was carrying. I suppose the double stuff 2 could work but I don't own one. I saw diminishing returns at higher grit finishes and low angles just like I do with s110v. I've already stated my views earlier in this thread and they have not changed. M398 is just aggressive in nature, and I have found a way to embrace its attributes.

[Ramonade]

We probably should have made multiple threads here. Thread dedicated to the theoretical and physical evaluations of this steel. I don't work for spyderco and I don't tell them what recipe to follow in terms of heat treat. I can provide my own experiences to assist with their overall evaluations on the sample I have. I try to do that with every mule team I own bcuz that's what was asked of me. M398 compares to s110V thru the mileage and testing I have done personally. I think keeping the edge angle at 15-17 dps is the best in terms of overall stability and performance. On 2 week dedicated carries of my m398 mule I'd touch mine up every few days on the the red dmt diafold sharpener I was carrying. I suppose the double stuff 2 could work but I don't own one. I saw diminishing returns at higher grit finishes and low angles just like I do with s110v. I've already stated my views earlier in this thread and they have not changed. M398 is just aggressive in nature, and I have found a way to embrace its attributes.

Thanks again for your feedback and the work you put in steeltoez. I did not even try a high grit finish with my M398 Mule yet, I went for the same kind of edges I put on M390. I took one side down to and the other up to 17° and finished at 600 grit. The bite I was able to produce was just fine, even if I prefer what I'm able to get with K390 at the same grit.

I know that it's a user result, not necessarily linked to the steel but I wanted to share that too.

[Steeltoez83]

We probably should have made multiple threads here. Thread dedicated to the theoretical and physical evaluations of this steel. I don't work for spyderco and I don't tell them what recipe to follow in terms of heat treat. I can provide my own experiences to assist with their overall evaluations on the sample I have. I try to do that with every mule team I own bcuz that's what was asked of me. M398 compares to s110V thru the mileage and testing I have done personally. I think keeping the edge angle at 15-17 dps is the best in terms of overall stability and performance. On 2 week dedicated carries of my m398 mule I'd touch mine up every few days on the the red dmt diafold sharpener I was carrying. I suppose the double stuff 2 could work but I don't own one. I saw diminishing returns at higher grit finishes and low angles just like I do with s110v. I've already stated my views earlier in this thread and they have not changed. M398 is just aggressive in nature, and I have found a way to embrace its attributes.

Thanks again for your feedback and the work you put in steeltoez. I did not even try a high grit finish with my M398 Mule yet, I went for the same kind of edges I put on M390. I took one side down to and the other up to 17° and finished at 600 grit. The bite I was able to produce was just fine, even if I prefer what I'm able to get with K390 at the same grit.

I know that it's a user result, not necessarily linked to the steel but I wanted to share that too.

Thanks Robin. I noticed my M390 underperformed compared to my 20CV on my manixes or menixes and could hold a higher grit finish better. The seki k390 stuff checks alot of boxes for me too. The leafjumper hasn't left my pocket for weeks.

[VandymanG]

Ok this is a simple question that I’m hoping you can all clarify for me. I don’t have all the fancy equipment and knowledge you all have. I also have one of the worst cases of psoriatic arthritis that my doctors have ever seen so I can’t do the repetitive cut testing. But I do try.

The thing that has me confused is that my M398 mule does a better job of feather sticking wood for fires than the AEB-L and the K294 do. Both the AEB-L and K294 dull pretty quick with the AEB-L mule dulling the quickest and needing more touch ups. None of the mules chip.

Now here’s where I get confused. I figured that the M398 with its low toughness and high hardness would chip often. I also figured that the K294 would outperform both mules with its toughness and edge retention but it just outperforms the AEB-L, for me when feather sticking. The M398 only slightly dulls doing several feather sticks and really doesn’t need to be sharpened, but I touch it up anyways. Both the K294 and AEB-L need touch ups during the feather sticking process.

So I’m confused by my observations. And I’m just wondering if they’re on track and that maybe my preconceived assumptions were just off?

[Steeltoez83]

M398 doubled my Aeb-l test cut numbers. Makes perfect sense to me seeing those results with feathersticks. I define toughness as the steels ability to absorb impact, and it's effect on edge retention. I lock my wrist when feathersticking, so I will assume your not twisting or hitting rocks.