Forumites vs. Normals

[Bolster]

I know that we forumites are unusual Spyderco customers…we buy a lot more, we spend more time and attention on knives, and we’re really into the details. But to what extent are we (A) just different and weird; or (B) vanguards, ahead of the curve? Is it possible that the niche obsessions of today’s forumites are merely tomorrow’s standard products? For example: Here on the forum we jumped on Magnacut before it was even commercially available, when the muggles had neither heard of it, nor cared. Maybe in a few years Joe Blow will insist on Magnacut when he buys his next pocketknife at the local Walmart—‘diffusion of innovation,’ as the academics like to call it. In which case, forum reactions may be early indicators of what is to come. Alternately, perhaps today’s forumites fairly well represent the “big spenders” of tomorrow, those with upscale budgets that every company loves to sell to.

I’m starting to doubt the conventional wisdom that we’re just an odd group of obsessed weirdos, not that I mind being an obsessed weirdo—I’m just less confident of the stereotype. I remember life as a muggle. I was buying carbon steel and 440A knives, and then I purchased a Schatt & Morgan in ATS-34. Wow, what a huge difference! Once I realized that steel made a big difference in performance, it was just a matter of time before I got hooked on Spyderco. Then I became a forumite and the learning hasn’t stopped. I no longer represent the typical knife customer, but am I really that different from my old muggle self? Or am I just ahead of where I would have been otherwise? I’m thinking that forumites may be best described as the leading edge of a normal curve, rather than a distinct, separate, disconnected type of being whose preferences have no relation to the marketplace as a whole.

What say you?

[MFlovejp]

There is not a single production knife company that offers even close to the number of premium models and configurations as Spyderco. It’s the wide variety of materials, details and options that appeals to me personally. I am most definitely a nerd, and I feel comfortable saying that most of the rest of you are as well. Otherwise, that 440A knife would be perfectly capable of accomplishing cutting tasks- just not in as cool of a fashion as my painstakingly researched and analyzed choice of EDCs today.

[prndltech]

Freakin weirdos.


And this comes from a guy born and raised in Austin, TX 🥸

[jwbnyc]

Oh no, we are not normal. I don’t think the average knife user is interested in getting a knife made with steel they need a PhD to sharpen.

They rarely sharpen their knives anyway.

They want something rust free or cheap, preferably both. Most people will be happy as long as they don’t have a problem.

They deem knives as good or bad, from their own experience, and that is what informs their next purchase.

They remember that time a knife let them down and don’t buy that knife again. They don’t buy multiple knives. They buy when they lose a knife or it breaks.

I don’t think that has changed regardless of where we are in our usage as crazy people.

In fact, imo, the industry as a whole is in danger of selling products that will be considered bad because they cause a problem for the average user due to the steel being too hard or not corrosion resistant enough.

So, no, I do not think we are leading the way forward to a bright new future of cutlery enlightenment.

Having said that.. Eventually things may get to the point where the holy grail of the perpetually sharp rust proof knife becomes a reality; then no one will care about anything as mundane as steel composition, and we can all go back to being steel muggles.

But, not to worry, there will still be plenty of other knife attributes to obsess over.

[Bolster]

Freakin weirdos....

Oh no, we are not normal....

Right, that's the conventional wisdom; we've all heard it many, many (many) times. The conventional wisdom is what I'm questioning...politely and respectfully, to all the weirdos out there.

If true, then it would make sense for Spyderco to ignore us completely, since we are not in any way representative of the marketplace. It would also follow that Sal's and Michael's presence on the forum is a complete waste of time. If a particular group of people are just irrelevant weirdos, you ignore them. The last thing a rational company would do, is listen to a small, oddball bunch of obsessive weirdos.

[jwbnyc]

Mmmm.. except Sal and Michael suffer from the same affliction.

It must be somewhat difficult to keep that affliction from affecting the more salient decisions required to maintain a successful business.

I’m sure they are aware of this and take precautions.

[Bolster]

I don't disagree that Sal and Michael are obsessive weirdos like us, but what makes them totally and completely different, is that they have a company to run. If the goal is a successful business, then you'd limit interaction with irrelevant time-wasting weirdos, and concentrate on mainstream regular people, the muggles who "buy cheap stainless knives and don't sharpen them." UNLESS the weirdos had something to offer.

You realize the arguments of "weird" and "not normal" lead directly to "irrelevant," yes?

[cali]

If true, then it would make sense for Spyderco to ignore us completely, since we are not in any way representative of the marketplace. It would also follow that Sal's and Michael's presence on the forum is a complete waste of time. If a particular group of people are just irrelevant weirdos, you ignore them. The last thing a rational company would do, is listen to a small, oddball bunch of obsessive weirdos.

Not really, it's called a niche market and usually it means that the competition is low and margins are higher.

[JRinFL]

There is lots of money to be made from the group of “not normals”. Keeping it just related to cutlery, there are collectors, obsessives, preppers, and others. We’ll buy the same knife over and over if the color changes. Same goes for steel changes. Tiny CQI changes get noticed and can trigger more re-buys. We’ll buy another “just n case”. We’ll buy some models in anticipation of events unlikely to happen.

Cutlery manufacturers have known this for decades (centuries?) and have exploited our quirks with limited editions, special editions, sprints, flash batches, steel changes, handle material changes, etc. We are a pretty reliable cash cow and so we remain relevant.

[Bolster]

If true, then it would make sense for Spyderco to ignore us completely, since we are not in any way representative of the marketplace. It would also follow that Sal's and Michael's presence on the forum is a complete waste of time. If a particular group of people are just irrelevant weirdos, you ignore them. The last thing a rational company would do, is listen to a small, oddball bunch of obsessive weirdos.

Not really, it's called a niche market and usually it means that the competition is low and margins are higher.

Good point, and do you think competition is low for the oddball-weirdo-niche? Or do you think the competition is fairly robust?

Also: Earlier I said "UNLESS the weirdos had something to offer." Do you think that all we have to offer is purchasing power? Or is there more to our niche-i-ness, are we also a source of ideas, and an early indication of where the market is moving?

[JoshLikesSekiCityKnives]

I know I am not normal. Speaking in a mental health state that is. But I got nothing against 440A. When it comes to knives. I prefer being normal
I like simpler steels for some aspects and the ease of sharpening. I own a nice looking and very tough MTech Extreme full tang knife in 440A that has been reliable and a good knife for hard use camping. I know it is full tang because I took it apart.
I get super steels are wonderful. And I support innovation. But I also like budget line stuff that is affordable and no sweat or crying if lost or stolen.
To make all knives from the best super steels only serves to hurt the majority who cannot or will not spend more than $50 to $100 on a knife. And that logic in the end hurts manufacturers as they would have to raise the prices of their knives. 90% of the people I know or have met are not high end knife nuts. And their business is just as beneficial as the 5% who invest thousands in their collection for the latest and best knives.
Oh! I forgot to mention I got this for $24.99. Sometimes on sale for $19.99.

https://www.amazon.com/MTech-Xtreme-Sta ... 00&sr=1-12

[James Y]

It's the "obsessives" and other "not-normals" that are driving growth in this industry.

Although I am a knife enthusiast, I won't go as far as to say I'm a knife nerd. "Nerd" used to (and sometimes still does) carry a negative connotation for some. But it really just means someone with an extreme knowledge and enthusiasm around a particular subject or subjects.

Knives are a hobby of mine, but I cannot say I'm as obsessive about knives as many on this forum are. My enthusiasm for knives goes well beyond the average Joe, but nowhere near the degree of many members here. And that's OK, too. I'm not the type whose knife passion is enough to drive growth in Spyderco; a lot of stuff that people discuss about knives here goes way over my head. It's the real knife nerds (meant in a positive connotation) who help to further inspire the already-creative powers of Sal, Eric, and Mike.

I AM a "nerd" (though not in a 'Big Bang Theory' sort of way) for other interests that I have, and a lot of what I might have to say on those subjects would go over most people's heads, too. We could probably ALL be considered nerds about something, if we're really passionate about any interest. And just as in knives, it's those who are extremely passionate about any subject that fuel its growth and expand its potential.

Jim

[jwbnyc]

Weirdos aren’t irrelevant. They move things forward. Edison was a weirdo. Einstein was a weirdo.

But.

That doesn’t mean you want to take your business model from weirdos.

Checking on what’s trending and even leading the conversation is not a bad place to be for a CEO in a particular field.

But but.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that the weirdos are leading the way to a particular conclusion.

Picture this:

Two guys standing around the water cooler..

“Did you hear the Manix 2 went to screw construction?”

“That’s sweet..”

“Yeah, but I’m waiting for the Manix 2 Salt to drop before I pull the trigger.”

“Cool..”

There are places where you might overhear that conversation, but not many.

[JoshLikesSekiCityKnives]

It's the "obsessives" and other "not-normals" that are driving growth in this industry.

Although I am a knife enthusiast, I won't go as far as to say I'm a knife nerd. "Nerd" used to (and sometimes still does) carry a negative connotation for some. But it really just means someone with an extreme knowledge and enthusiasm around a particular subject or subjects.

Knives are a hobby of mine, but I cannot say I'm as obsessive about knives as many on this forum are. My enthusiasm for knives goes well beyond the average Joe, but nowhere near the degree of many members here. And that's OK, too. I'm not the type whose knife passion is enough to drive growth in Spyderco; a lot of stuff that people discuss about knives here goes way over my head. It's the real knife nerds (meant in a positive connotation) who help to further inspire the already-creative powers of Sal, Eric, and Mike.

I AM a "nerd" (though not in a 'Big Bang Theory' sort of way) for other interests that I have, and a lot of what I might have to say on those subjects would go over most people's heads, too. We could probably ALL be considered nerds about something, if we're really passionate about any interest. And just as in knives, it's those who are extremely passionate about any subject that fuel its growth and expand its potential.

Jim

I would say both obsessives and normals play a big part in driving growth in any business niche. The old saying goes. Money talks and .B.S. walks.
Think about it like this. The hard core knife enthusiast spends $1000 to $3000 a year on knives. One out of 100 people rough estimate is a true knife nut. Not speaking of multi millionaire like Sylvester Stallone who own millions in knives.
The in between category of lets say semi knife enthusiasts like myself spend $200 to $500 a year. Most people are lucky to afford $200 to $500 a year on knives.
The remaining 99 out of 100 regular non knife nuts buy a $40 Byrd once a year. Perhaps that is all they can afford or they would rather place money in different interests such as gaming, savings, bullion, fashion, etc.
$40 X 99 = $3,960
So I believe both dermographics can be credited with knife growth, sales, employment, and development.

[jwbnyc]

I don’t think the folks at Spyderco would consider just the knife-weird as the core of the business.

That would be the military, first responders, service providers, and others who work with their knives, many of whom are represented here, apart from their knife interests, but also the average knife user who is looking for a good knife without thinking about it too much.

Hobbyists are certainly welcome, as they are in all fields, as long as they stay in their lanes, and that doesn’t mean they don’t fit in any of the other categories of people who use knives, and they do, quite often, push the envelope, but not necessarily any place that the rest of the world wants or needs to go.

Ultimately, I don’t think we have anything to tell Sal about the knife business.

That doesn’t mean it isn’t nice that Spyderco provides this forum where we all can hang out, get the scoop from Sal and Mike, maybe have a little input, now and then, and maybe spark a little inspiration.

[Evil D]

I think we're just fortunate to have some in-the-know people here on the forum and the company itself does a great job communicating with us about development and that makes this forum a very "finger on the pulse" environment, so I would say ahead of the curve is a fair statement. I think it has more to do with the company than with us though, they take it to that place and we're the enthusiasts that follow along and in many cases outright demand this kind of business model. The reason you may not see members of other knife brand forums talking about leading edge steel types and exploring the finer details of metallurgy is because those companies may not offer these kinds of products for their customers to use in the first place and if they do they're bringing them to market as a reaction rather than being proactive. I think the way Spyderco are quick to put uncommon steels into production is a big part of what attracts the eccentric fan base and forum members, and I think other brands watch Spyderco to see what they're doing and then they react.

[Bolster]

I don’t think the folks at Spyderco would consider just the knife-weird as the core of the business...

I don't either, and I haven't seen anybody suggest that.

...Ultimately, I don’t think we have anything to tell Sal about the knife business....

Yes, I agree if by 'knife business' you mean the part of the business which entails knowing how to design and manufacture a top quality knife. But "half of business is marketing," as some say, discovering what the marketplace wants. Well...we're a segment of the market that Spyderco can easily reach and interact with. Sal solicits opinions on the forum frequently, and throws ideas around here. It doesn't strike me that he's just humoring or placating the forum, I think he's really listening. So, in a way, we do have things to tell Spyderco. Most forward-thinking companies take the position that they're ultimately working for the customer, and so take pains to listen to the customer base. (Not saying we are the customer base, but I suspect we may be a leading indicator of it--with the caveat of holding price ranges constant.)

Maybe this is a better way to get at the question of forum relevance. Staying within the same price range (let's say a $150 knife), do you think it's often that a big forum crowd-pleaser $150 knife design, would bomb-out in the muggle marketplace shopping in that same $150 range--that the mugs would hate something that the forumites loved? Or flip that around: Do you think that a design that's panned by the forum, would be a blockbuster sellout in the muggle-place--given the same price range?

Are we so different from the normals that our instincts are at 90 degrees, or even 180, to the norms? (Given that we hold price ranges constant. Obviously, we weirdos are willing to spend more.)

[sal]

Hey Bolster,

Great topic.

sal

[jwbnyc]

I think the vanguard, as you put it in your opening post, for Spyderco is the military, police, first responders, people who work around water, etc.., also various niche markets within the overall market, (Dodo anyone?) but we do play our part. I think Sal uses us as a sounding board and even may take some inspiration, from time to time, but, as David pointed out earlier, he’s leading rather than following more often than not.

When it comes to $150.00 knives, anyone considering something in that range is, more than likely, on their way to joining the knife cognoscenti. Either that, or they are a card carrying member of one, or another, of the services.

Not too many regular people are dropping $150.00 on a knife.

But, to your point; if it’s a hit here, it will probably be a hit with others of our ilk, so there’s that.

[jwbnyc]

Perhaps a useful way to look at the forum is as an arm of the Spyderco R and D department. It’s a place where Sal gets real-time feedback from people who generally know how to use a knife, know a fair bit about the nuts and bolts, sharpening, etc.., and will raise a flag if there is a fly in the ointment with a particular design. He also likes hanging out with his people, I would think, not to speak for Sal, but we are his people to a certain extent.

It’s a community, first and foremost. Imo.