upgraded steels for less popular models

[RustyIron]

I don't think the increasing level of steel snobbery is a bad thing

If there were no such thing as steel snobs, we'd all be carrying blades of Bessemer steel.

[JD Spydo]

Well Bro you've kind of stole my thunder in a sense>> but it's all good for sure. Because for quite a few years now I've been really campaigning for many older Spyderco models to be reintroduced in newer/better blade steels. Take the JD Smith model for instance. I wish they would offer that model up in at least 4 of the newer/better blade steels. Just in a similar way Spyderco recently brought back the great C-60 Ayoob model with Cruwear really drives my point home in a big way.

As many of you know for years now I've been extremely fond of most of the models made during 1998 to 2004 time slot ( what I call the GOLDEN ERA) are still some of my all time favorites. The Cruwear C-60 Ayoob is really a completely new blade with that upgrade of Cruwear blade steel. There are so many great models from that time slot would be stellar in new upgraded blade steels. And newer/better handle materials don't hurt anything either. Very interesting thread for sure.

[Ramonade]

I'm a steel addict, because I'm a sharpening addict.
But I just bought a Native III in VG-10 and got a Baby Horn in the same steel.
I also fell in love with the Efficient I got from the 2nds sale and it stole my Maxamet PM2's thunder (a lot of thunder stolen lately) !

I'll admit that I'm a bit like RustyIron, I try to buy both a design that interests me and a steel that intrigues me. But that was before going from a 2 to 3 steel selection to owning like 50+ Spydies in Idontknowhowmuch steels. I'll always go for the new steel just to see how it feels on the stones, how sharp I can get it !

For now, any model from Spyderco that gets the K390 treatment is making me happy. Out of all the steels I've played with, that's one of my favorites. I didn't go for a leafjumper in VG-10 'cause I have similar blade shapes in other steels. But in K390 that'd be a new "combo" I'd be in for !

[Cl1ff]

Thanx Ladybug. Interesting discussion. I guess we could try to "squeeze in" a "Leaf Jumper" in K390 to test?

sal

I already have a Rockjumper, but I will buy this.

[ladybug93]

However, I can see from a business stand point, if you're running at full capacity and can't even keep up with your production knives something may need to get discontinued. Undoubtedly the models reaping the lowest profit hit the chopping block, to make room for new models.

that's a great point. there are lots of models out of stock currently. i know there was an effort made to catch up with production models, and it definitely worked, but it seems really difficult to keep some things in stock. i guess that speaks to the popularity of those models. i watch the spyderco page fairly closely and some models will be out of stock for months at a time. when they restock, they're gone very quickly.

anyway, i understand that business is business and there are reasons for models to be discontinued. maybe it's not worth it to try to keep a model around because there is something in line behind it that will almost surely be a better seller. i am talking about doubling the production and stock of a model that isn't selling as well as a gamble to make it sell better, so i can see from a business standpoint where that risk might be counterproductive. it's just hard to watch great designs disappear without really getting the proper chance in the spotlight.

[ladybug93]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with being a “steel junkie” but there are so many armchair experts these days that I just feel like “steel snobbery” has gotten a little bit out of hand.

I don't think the increasing level of steel snobbery is a bad thing for companies that make and sell knives. Now there's one more sure-fire way to attract buyers.

For instance, imagine what upcoming Magnacut folders are going to do for Spyderco's sales volume.

Generally, I agree, it’s not a bad thing for knife companies. Especially when the marketing of new steels can be used to their advantage.

To play devils advocate though, it can be a bad thing such as in the circumstances highlighted in this thread. There has been a handful of great knives that have suffered because they’re either VG10 or S30V. An unnecessary fate for some of those knives in my opinion.

———

The Rockjumper is potentially the best current example of a great design that might be suffering because of “steel snobbery.” Although I might personally attribute that to the wharncliffe blade shape before I’d blame the steel, surprisingly enough. As popular as wharncliffes have been over the past few years, they’re still kind of viewed as a specialized blade shape. I would venture to guess that if the Leafjumper came out first, sales would have been better than the Rockjumper has seen.

do you think if the leafjumper had been released first and potentially sold better, the rockjumper might have done better as a later release? maybe a boost in leafjumper sales will get the handle in more hands and more will be willing to try the rockjumper as a result.

personally, i don't think the wharncliffe blade is the problem, but i can definitely see it being part of it. wharncliffes are less popular for edc, but the blade shape really has grown in popularity a lot, as you said.

[ladybug93]

Thanx Ladybug. Interesting discussion. I guess we could try to "squeeze in" a "Leaf Jumper" in K390 to test?

sal

sal, i really appreciate your attention on this forum (not just this thread, but overall). i know these threads can come across as laymen trying to tell the master how to run their business. i hope that's not how this comes across. i'm just trying to share observations and start a discussion in hopes to help in some way.

i'm guessing by your comment that this is already in the works for the leafjumper? i hope that's the case and that it's very successful. i really think your move to a neutral grip in these models is going to make them very popular, as long as they have enough time to be noticed by more users.

thanks for listening!

[Cl1ff]

I will say that I agree with the concept that different/upgraded steels and handles on less popular designs is a great way to try to boost their popularity. Especially when or if it’s not clear whether the design or materials are what is having a significant affect on sales.

Another great way is to do something along the lines of what JDSpydo did with the Ayoob.

Or to change the lock and some simple things like more pocket clip positions (Militray 2). Or switch to screw construction (Manix 2 LW).

I think a MagnaCut RockJumper in GITD (glow in the dark) FRN would be super popular.

It’s something I really want personally for purely functional performance reasons, but MagnaCut draws a lot of attention and people’s attention is always further peaked by glowing things.

[jwbnyc]

If more people would try a Warncliffe for what they actually do with a knife, day to day, they would be more popular imo.

[ladybug93]

If more people would try a Warncliffe for what they actually do with a knife, day to day, they would be more popular imo.

the only time it's even remotely a problem is when cutting on a flat surface. i found that most of my cutting isn't on a flat surface, and if needed, the tip still cuts just fine in that scenario. i do prefer a knife with a little belly generally, but i typically carry multiple knives and a wharncliffe really rounds out the carry well.

[jwbnyc]

Exactly. Most EDC cutting that people do is not cutting on a flat surface. Often, it’s freehand cutting or, if it’s not, it’s concentrated at the tip. Warncliffes are definitely a more specialized shape. It just happens that that specialization works very well with what folks use knives for in everyday chores.

[jwbnyc]

I don't think the increasing level of steel snobbery is a bad thing

If there were no such thing as steel snobs, we'd all be carrying blades of Bessemer steel.

This is the way.

[JoshLikesSekiCityKnives]

I for one hope VG10, 8CR13MOV, and budget steels stay readily available over steels such as ZDP189 and 20CV. Reasons being.
1. Not everyone buys into the steel of the month or sales hype of the next big thing.
2. Easy to sharpen VG10 in the field.Even on the bottom of a coffee cup or hard stone in a creek.If you lose your sharpener.
3. Edge retention is not the best. But far from horrible. And a definite improvement over bone, flint, iron and bronze knives Cavemen and the Roman empire used.
4. Affordability. Some of us don't want to spend a few hundred on a knife just to have the steel of the month. I would rather have money left over for other stuff. Such as silver bullion, nice clothing, watches, and food/house maintenance.
5. My point is the majority of people. Including myself want an easy to sharpen fairly tough affordable knife that does not cost $300 to 5 Grand. And are perfectly happy with basic steels such as VG10 and 8CR13MOV.
6. I don't want to use a $300 on up knife on a construction site for rough use or the chance it will be lost, broken, or stolen.Yes I have had this happen.
Some knife enthusiasts speak as if there is no selection of knives with more modern super steels And that anything below 20CV is horrible junk. You are living in a golden age of super steel and knife selection.
I would hate for some of you to have grown up in the 70's through the 1990's and dealt with the selection I had available as a kid. You have a wonderful selection today and yet don't realize it.

[rgc]

I don't think the increasing level of steel snobbery is a bad thing

If there were no such thing as steel snobs, we'd all be carrying blades of Bessemer steel.

This is the way.

Yes.

Plus different steels make it more fun because maybe the next one will become my new favorite.

[Mushroom]

do you think if the leafjumper had been released first and potentially sold better, the rockjumper might have done better as a later release? maybe a boost in leafjumper sales will get the handle in more hands and more will be willing to try the rockjumper as a result.

personally, i don't think the wharncliffe blade is the problem, but i can definitely see it being part of it. wharncliffes are less popular for edc, but the blade shape really has grown in popularity a lot, as you said.

That’s a good question and I can only speculate but I do think that could have been how it played out. I think a blade with some belly just appeals to a larger audience.

I really hope the Leafjumper can help lead to improved Rockjumper sales. It’s really a great design and deserves to stick around for a while. It very well could be a new high end steel that gets the knife in more pockets though.

[vandelay]

This seems like a good idea. I like the design of the rock/leaf jumper but there are too many options in better steels to make me consider one in VG-10.

[ladybug93]

I wonder how the PM2 Crucarta and the new Stretch XL in Cruwear in G10 are changing the discussions within Spyderco? Take two great models and offer them in an upgraded package in the product line. Something everyone can get across the globe not being an exclusive here in the states. I imagine sales have been good with those two so far. I would definitely like to see that with other models. Doesn't have to be the same configuration, but some "upgraded" version in the product line.

i wonder about this too. shortly after i started hanging around here, there was a lot of discussion about having multiple options for at least each of the more popular models. using the pm2 as the example, there would be the standard in s30v, the performance steel in something like s110v or a tool steel, and a salt in lc200n. i'm not sure what happened to that endeavor. my guess is a flood of exclusives happened instead, but that's just speculation. it could also be that there's just too many steels to nail down the different types in a meaningful way.

[weeping minora]

TBH, I'd rather like Spyderco to kind of dial back the super steeldom and start offering some of the finer grained, lesser alloyed steels, with a focus on a great to excellent heat treatment, over yet another flavor of super steel. Something like the Sandvik steels (of which sal has mentioned more recently receiving a shipment of) would be a great start IMO and not just within the more "budget" oriented lines.

I will be completely honest in that politics do play a bigger role in where my money goes, surpassing that of design or features and at this point with the prices the way they are, my money is reserved mostly for the home team (Golden models).

[sal]

Hi Josh,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[ladybug93]

I for one hope VG10, 8CR13MOV, and budget steels stay readily available over steels such as ZDP189 and 20CV. Reasons being.
1. Not everyone buys into the steel of the month or sales hype of the next big thing.
2. Easy to sharpen VG10 in the field.Even on the bottom of a coffee cup or hard stone in a creek.If you lose your sharpener.
3. Edge retention is not the best. But far from horrible. And a definite improvement over bone, flint, iron and bronze knives Cavemen and the Roman empire used.
4. Affordability. Some of us don't want to spend a few hundred on a knife just to have the steel of the month. I would rather have money left over for other stuff. Such as silver bullion, nice clothing, watches, and food/house maintenance.
5. My point is the majority of people. Including myself want an easy to sharpen fairly tough affordable knife that does not cost $300 to 5 Grand. And are perfectly happy with basic steels such as VG10 and 8CR13MOV.
6. I don't want to use a $300 on up knife on a construction site for rough use or the chance it will be lost, broken, or stolen.Yes I have had this happen.
Some knife enthusiasts speak as if there is no selection of knives with more modern super steels And that anything below 20CV is horrible junk. You are living in a golden age of super steel and knife selection.
I would hate for some of you to have grown up in the 70's through the 1990's and dealt with the selection I had available as a kid. You have a wonderful selection today and yet don't realize it.

josh, welcome and thanks for chiming in with your perspective. i'm not sure if you are arguing against my post, or against other comments, but i clearly stated that i don't think vg10 should go away. i only have one knife in vg10 currently, but i have quite a few in s30v and even 8cr13mov. i agree with you 100% about needing knives with lower cost/higher value in the lineup. i also don't subscribe to needing the newest steel flavor or longest edge holding. in fact, my favored steels if you were to look at my collection would be lc200n and s30v. as i said, i'm perfectly fine with middle of the road, we'll-balanced steels. my point is simply that it might be beneficial to offer knives in those super steels to get enthusiasts excited enough to talk about the knives so that people will want them more, even if they go for a vg10 version of the same thing.

and to be fair, bringing up what cavemen used or what our parents and grandparents used is kind of irrelevant. there's no reason to believe they wouldn't have wanted k390 or cruwear or lc200n (just for examples) in their pocket knife if it was available at the time. i mean, even vg10 is better than what our grandparents carried, so maybe we shouldn't use that either. i'm not going to trade my m390 manix to try flint knapping my own knife just because rocks are free and they were good enough for cavemen.

but, i really am glad you're here and do appreciate your perspective. you seem like the type of person i was referring to in my post that knows how to google search and learn about steels and knife designs and pay attention to the buzz, but is totally happy to stick with vg10. believe it or not, i'm on your side. i want to see great models that are currently only available in vg10 stick around instead of getting discontinued.