Chef's knives - questions, ideas & recommendations

[bleasure]

I am interested in picking up a new chef's knife for a friend, and potentially one for my own kitchen too. I've spent a good while now looking for options, and have been surprised by the limited selection available for good quality knives in a Euro/German style blade profile. I'm especially curious about the lack of blade steel options. Most appear to have either an unexplained 'proprietary' alloy (looking at you, "Friodur"), 1.4116 / X50CrMoV15, or some rough equivalent.

I understand Japanese knives are a completely different story in terms of variety, quality, and steel options, but I am not especially interested in them, or that style in general, for several reasons ($, sharpening complications, handle style, etc.). I'd like something I'm not afraid to open up a butternut with.

So my questions really are:
1.) Options: Do you have any favorites in the world of production German/Euro profile chef's knives? Especially those outside the standard Henckles/Wusthof/Victorinox trinity? There's a Messermeister I like the looks of, but the steel is 1.4116 - no big deal and I'm happy to grab it if it's the most appealing option, but I'd like to know if there are others. Which leads me to...

2.) Steels: Do you know of any makers using steels other than the standard offerings? Or that appear to have outstanding heat treats on the standard options? They wouldn't have to be anything dramatically unusual or exciting, just ideally well performing beyond the norm and appropriate for kitchen use (eg, like, VG10 would be great). I know Fällkniven, for instance, offers kitchen knives in its usual range of steels. Spyderco obviously comes to mind, but most of their knives are in the Japanese style which is not of much interest to me, regardless of the many advantages they have.

For reference, I currently have the Henckels 4 star and like it just fine. Thanks!!

[Jurmuscle]

I ordered a Misen and is way cheaper than comparable Wusthof but fraction of price. Feels good quality in hand. And first order I believe is free shipping and a discount. They sell directly to consumer. It's western style knife with Japanese 15° bevel. They started on Kickstarter. I have their utility knife, cutting board, steak knifes, and in drawer knife holder. Like em all. And I have had my fair share of expensive knifes. Wusthofs, Masamoto, etc.

[bleasure]

I ordered a Misen and is way cheaper than comparable Wusthof but fraction of price. Feels good quality in hand. And first order I believe is free shipping and a discount. The sell directly to consumer. It's western style knife with Japanese 15° bevel. They started on Kickstarter. I have their utility knife, cutting board, steak knifes, and in drawer knife holder. Like em all. And I have had my fair share of expensive knifes. Wusthofs, Masamoto, etc.

Thanks! I liked the look of these and they definitely seem like a great deal comparatively. Now on the short list

[Eli Chaps]

So let's look at your perception of Japanese knives for starters just to see if there might be some things you're confused about.

1) Western (yo) handled knives are actually quite traditional and there are tons of options out there with them. Gyuto's were fashioned after the French Sabatier.

2) Sharpening complications. Shirogami (white) steels are prolific in Japanese knives and you can't get more sharpener friendly than that. Lots and lots of stainless glad models out there so maintenance is not a big concern but even if it is, there a lot of Ginsan, AEB-L, AUS8 and 10, and myriad VG family that are stainless and most, especially Ginsan and AEB-L are very sharpener friendly.

3) Japanese knives come in a huge variety of grind options from the curvy German-style to lasers to workhorses. Most of them, even the workhorses will have very good at-edge grinds which is where your mainstream western makers fall well short by comparison. It doesn't take too much research to find a knife that will fit your needs and hold up but still give good performance.

4) There's a good variety in readily available steel options in Japanese knives, much more so than readily available western options. ZDP-189, SG2, SRS-13 and 15 are fairly common, especially SG2.

Honestly, reading your desires, it sounds like the right Japanese knife is exactly what you're after.

[Eli Chaps]

That said, Warther Cutlery uses S45VN and North Arm Knives uses S35VN.

I have no experience with either so can't speak to the quality, grinds or profiles.

[bleasure]

Honestly, reading your desires, it sounds like the right Japanese knife is exactly what you're after.

Thanks, I appreciate the spirit of making sure I don't miss out on what might appear actually ideal to me. The thing is I'm not really confused about anything regarding Japanese-style knives, just relatively sure I'm not interested at this point.

By sharpening complications I don't mean steel type, but chisel or otherwise asymmetrical grinds, which I don't want to deal with in a kitchen knife regardless of superior slicing performance. I understand these angles are not universal, that the steel is generally heat treated better, and that the grinds are excellent. Still not for me. As far as steel type goes, only ZDP-189 is going to present any real labor intensiveness, and even then it's not so bad. But it *would* lose its tip just looking at a giant butternut. If I found a quality euro-style knife by a Japanese maker with the traits I was looking for I'd take it in a second; I just haven't yet, despite browsing the go-to online distros for them.

You're absolutely right that a variety of steel types are readily available in Japanese knives, but this is exactly what's sparked my curiosity and led to the post here specifically - why isn't this true for so-called 'euro' knives as well? More to the point, *is* it true? Or am I just not aware of existing options in a market (& algorithmic environment) surrounded by a wall built by 3 or 4 major knife manufacturers it's difficult to see over, or get around? Spyderco people are steel people; they would know if anyone would.

At the end of the day, I'm just not aesthetically interested in the Japanese style knives - I dislike the general characteristics of the genre, and I really don't like the handle style. FWIW I also hate (*hate*) almost all non-sour Belgian beers. I know I'm missing out, I have tried many (many) of the literally best Saisons, trippels, quads, etc. a person can get; there is simply no question about the craft and quality that go into them. But those banana tasting clove-y mf-ers are not for me.

[Eli Chaps]

Many Japanese knives are not asymmetrical and even more are mildly so and not a problem at all to sharpen.

In fact, single bevel knives, of which I'm not a fan for practical uses, are widely considered quite easy to sharpen.

I can offer you this video by a friend:


But, you seem set on a path so I wish you the best of luck and hope you find what you're after.

[MacLaren]

Gotta say, I love me some VG10! It's freakin awesome imo.
Tojiro DP Series is a great buy, imo
If ya wanna spend a little more, check out Murray Carter. His Muteki knives are fantastic. I just bought a Muteki Slicer with Hitachi White #1 and it's a laser. Also, the Spyderco Murray Carter Series with Super Blue would be another seriously good kitchen knife. I'm definitely getting one or more of those. As for the Muteki I just bought I'll post a couple pics below. I've got a little experience in cutting and slicing meats and veggies & I'll tell ya, I cut my finger the first time I used this Muteki, lol
It's very light and fast in hand. & it will cut ya quick

[vivi]

I am interested in picking up a new chef's knife for a friend, and potentially one for my own kitchen too. I've spent a good while now looking for options, and have been surprised by the limited selection available for good quality knives in a Euro/German style blade profile. I'm especially curious about the lack of blade steel options. Most appear to have either an unexplained 'proprietary' alloy (looking at you, "Friodur"), 1.4116 / X50CrMoV15, or some rough equivalent.

I understand Japanese knives are a completely different story in terms of variety, quality, and steel options, but I am not especially interested in them, or that style in general, for several reasons ($, sharpening complications, handle style, etc.). I'd like something I'm not afraid to open up a butternut with.

So my questions really are:
1.) Options: Do you have any favorites in the world of production German/Euro profile chef's knives? Especially those outside the standard Henckles/Wusthof/Victorinox trinity? There's a Messermeister I like the looks of, but the steel is 1.4116 - no big deal and I'm happy to grab it if it's the most appealing option, but I'd like to know if there are others. Which leads me to...

2.) Steels: Do you know of any makers using steels other than the standard offerings? Or that appear to have outstanding heat treats on the standard options? They wouldn't have to be anything dramatically unusual or exciting, just ideally well performing beyond the norm and appropriate for kitchen use (eg, like, VG10 would be great). I know Fällkniven, for instance, offers kitchen knives in its usual range of steels. Spyderco obviously comes to mind, but most of their knives are in the Japanese style which is not of much interest to me, regardless of the many advantages they have.

For reference, I currently have the Henckels 4 star and like it just fine. Thanks!!

Something like this will cut circles around western chef knives while being quite durable and ergonomic.





VG10 @ 60 rc. Spyderco hits similar rc's with their vg10 and I've beat the **** out of that steel for decades in the woods. This tojiro oboro gyuto holds up to tough line use without issue.

It's a regular v edge with a full flat grind. No sharpening mysteries.

No exotic prices. These run just over $100.

YMMV on handle style but for me nothing beats octagon wa handles. These D shaped wa style handles are second favorite though.

I have a lot of different garman style chef knives and they're all so heavy, clumsy and poor cutters in comparison. I tend to give them away when I find someone in need of some sort of kitchen knife. For most simply having a sharp knife in the kitchen is an upgrade.

If you must have a western style handle, you can get japanese style geometry with western handles. Kohetsu vg-5 tsuchime gyuto 210mm for $110.

[bleasure]

thanks for the suggestions all! very much appreciated, and I'm feeling better informed

I would still love to know why there are not better, or more variety of steels in German-style knives. Obv this reflects the limited range of steels used in European cutlery generally, so that kind of path-dependency could be part of the problem. The other key factor is, I assume, that there's no real demand for it. People are duped into thinking that Wustof is high quality - which it is, compared to generic wally knives etc., so they don't even know to look for anything better. But I have to imagine there's a niche to fill here and I'm surprised no one has (or, again, have they and I'm just not aware?)

[Jumper]

The blade on our (very expensive!) 8” Wusthof recently snapped in two while my wife was slicing ginger. I bought the knife on Amazon in Jan 2021 but Wusthof USA refused to honor their warranty as we live in the Philippines. However, Wusthof made an interesting comment about their tempering process:

“ During the tempering process, if our machine stops for even a fraction of a second, it can cause a weak point in the steel. This is an extremely rare defect”. Browsing through the Amazon reviews, I came across a handful of snapped blades but they’re buried among all the positive reviews.

As Wusthof declined to honor their warranty, I decided to buy a $50 Mercer Renaissance 8” chef knife with the Granton grind. It’s made with the same steel as the Wusthof and has a similar profile, ie German with some belly. I like it a lot but it’s too early to see how it holds up.

Mercer also do a similar knife laminated with a VG10 core (MX3 range) but it’s over twice the price. It may be what you’re looking for.

[skeeg11]

Some of today's modern kitchen cutlery can get pretty spendy and I have been guilty of throwing my wallet at 'em, too. Still, tho, I have a soft spot for older carbon steel kitchen cutlery. Carbon steel Sabatier, Henckel, etc. IMHO is much preferred over their current stainless stuff. Some great deals can be had on carbon steel carver/slicers. Many of them have seen a lot of commercial duty carving roast beef and may be a little misshapen from profuse whacking on a steel, but a little reprofiling will get them back into shape and good working order. I have a carbon steel Henckel that has wonderfully thin blade stock. Not only Sabatier, Henckel or Gustav Emil Urn, but others, too. Even slightly thicker carver/slicers like L F & Co and Cattaraugus can be tuned up and repurposed. I use 'em for taking the skin off of fish fillets.