Kitchen Knife Shape Opinions

[Scandi Grind]

Hey all,

I'm looking into higher end kitchen knives since I only own kitchen cutlery not worthy of mention. I want to eventually get one nice kitchen knife that I can really enjoy, but I am not sure which shape I would prefer, so I am looking for opinions.

My current knife set has a western chef knife, a santoku, and a narrow meat carving knife. I have never found the meat carver more useful for any task than the chef knife, and the narrow blade makes it worse at cutting. The santoku is thicker than it should be, so I don't use it for that reason and have never gotten a good feel for what the profile has to offer.

However, it seems in my experience that the western chef knife profile maximizes performance for the largest number of tasks. It is deep and thin at the back and slices vegetables and meats very well there, and it has a fairly generous sweep to the blade which allows for easy rocking motions that give me confidence in the control of my blade. I've tried these rocking motions on blades with less sweep and always feel like I'm kind of just ungracefully shoving the blade tip into my cutting board in the process. The tip on a chef knife is narrow enough that I can reach into small areas easily too. I feel like I can do virtually any food prep task efficiently with a chef knife.

However, I am extremely attracted to Japanese style kitchen knives. I find the shapes gorgeous and can hardly imagine getting something nice that isn't a Japanese knife shape. Most the the ones I've seen are either santoku or gyuto shapes, both of which have less sweep than chef knives, and the santoku lacking the fine tip as well.

I feel like my performance and appearance preferences are at war here, and I am hoping someone can tell me that Japanese knife shapes would work better than I able to convince myself without more experience. Don't let my prejudices sway your feedback though, I want your most honest opinions.

What do you feel are the most efficient general purpose kitchen knife shapes? And if there are any close seconds, what would they be?

[Eli Chaps]

Good for you wanting to upgrade what are arguably the most used blades we own and for being discerning in your quest!

First, as I've mentioned to others in the past, I'd encourage you to join Kitchen Knife Forums and find the knife questionnaire.

Next, understand, there's a ton of overlap in J-knife nomenclatures these days. Yes, there's pretty general rules like gyutos are curvier and santoku/bunka are flatter but you can find a ton of variation in them.

If you like rock chopping, you might be surprised how much you can do that with less curve than your common German-style blades. Also, understand that pretty much any western mass production Japanese style knife will be poor executions of it and suck. Sorry Wusthof and Henkels. Just a fact.

Gyutos are actually the descendants of French chef knives which were somewhat straighter and narrower than their German and English counter parts of the time. I come from the popular German brands but once I committed to the so-called Japanese designs, I've never looked back. But there's a ton of variety from thicker grinds to lasers, from shorter to taller, clad to mono, and on and on.

Your chef knife, be it gyuto or what have you, is your all-rounder. You'll so often hear that you should have a chef knife, a serrated knife, and a pairing/petty. I say meh to that. I put a serrated knife way down on my list and hardly ever use one. I also put a sujihiki above a pairing knife. In fact, as a home cook, I have **** little real need for a pairing knife as I don't do a lot of in-hand cutting. So I opt for the longer petty knife, another French adaption.

Your diet can help direct your preferences too. Predominantly a veggie eater? You might like a nakiri over a gyuto.

Do you sharpen? If you don't, fear not, you can do it but it changes the recommendation equation for me so that's why I ask.

You can always PM me if you want some vendors to explore but if you have questions, might be good to keep them here as maybe it will help others.

[JSumm]

I am interested in this too. We mostly use a Santoku style. My understanding is it is designed more for a downward and forward cutting action. You can rock it, but may not be as natural as the Western style chef's blade. We are looking at a local maker to try out a western style chef's blade.

[benben]

I am interested in this too. We mostly use a Santoku style. My understanding is it is designed more for a downward and forward cutting action. You can rock it, but may not be as natural as the Western style chef's blade. We are looking at a local maker to try out a western style chef's blade.

I’m interested also, I’ve been using a 5.5” Shun Santoku for around five years now, fantastic do all knife for a weekend warrior chef like me. Didn’t think it could be any better, at least for me but out of the blue my wife got me a 6” Shun Western chef’s knife, that poor Santoku is super jealous these days!

I’ve also been talking to a custom builder who frequents Glocktalk, I *think* we’ve decided on W2 and Desert Ironwood?

This Japanese shape is what I’m going for.

[Scandi Grind]

Hey, Eli Chaps,

Thanks for the reply and offering some guidance!

I have spent the last couple years or so practising freehand sharpening, so that is what I do for my current kitchen knives. I don't really know how good I am, but I am satisfied with my results at this point.

I'm now trying to really think about what I eat most in order to help me make the right decision.

Fruits and vegetables need to be cut all the time. Most volume being, cucumbers, apples, carrots, potatoes, tomatoes, green peppers, and celery, roughly in that order.

For meat, I am mostly eating chicken lately, and I like slicing up chicken breasts and mixing with other stuff after it has been grilled.

I slice a lot of cheese, and have never used a knife that does that well.

For bread, I usually use cheap serrated bread knives and have never had an issue with that.

I feel like there is something I'm missing, but that is all I can think of at the moment.

I tend to think that steel is secondary to geometry, but I am still curious for any guidance since I am not kitchen knife steel savy at all. I have no fear of high carbon, and prefer it in many of my other knives for toughness and ease of sharpening. Edge retention is not the biggest deal to me because I enjoy sharpening and testing the results of my skills, and I am assuming that virtually anything will have better edge retention than the junk I own currently.

I don't want anything that is too hard to sharpen, but I am not only interested in softer high carbons either. I just want it to be reasonably easy for me to freehand back to sharp.

[Eli Chaps]

For those who are curious, I would strongly encourage you to consider knives at least 165mm long. You'll open up a lot of options if you start there. But, at that size, they'll mostly be santoku, bunka, and nakiri. Step up to 180mm and you start getting into gyuto territory but even here 210 and up is most popular.

I really like ~180. The last three knives on the right are all around 180mm:


I guess there's no reason I can't list vendors here (I hope). Some of my personal favorites are:

- Bernal Cutlery
- Epicurean Edge (also has a sister site with EDC/Outdoor knives)
- SHARP Knife Shop
- Strata Portland
- Carbon Knife Company

Other well-respected ones are:

- Knives and Stones (US and AUS)
- Japanese Knife Imports
- Korin
- MTC Kitchen
- Chubo Knives

And there's many others.

[Eli Chaps]

Hey, Eli Chaps,

Thanks for the reply and offering some guidance!

I have spent the last couple years or so practising freehand sharpening, so that is what I do for my current kitchen knives. I don't really know how good I am, but I am satisfied with my results at this point.

I'm now trying to really think about what I eat most in order to help me make the right decision.

Fruits and vegetables need to be cut all the time. Most volume being, cucumbers, apples, carrots, potatoes, tomatoes, green peppers, and celery, roughly in that order.

For meat, I am mostly eating chicken lately, and I like slicing up chicken breasts and mixing with other stuff after it has been grilled.

I slice a lot of cheese, and have never used a knife that does that well.

For bread, I usually use cheap serrated bread knives and have never had an issue with that.

I feel like there is something I'm missing, but that is all I can think of at the moment.

I tend to think that steel is secondary to geometry, but I am still curious for any guidance since I am not kitchen knife steel savy at all. I have no fear of high carbon, and prefer it in many of my other knives for toughness and ease of sharpening. Edge retention is not the biggest deal to me because I enjoy sharpening and testing the results of my skills, and I am assuming that virtually anything will have better edge retention than the junk I own currently.

I don't want anything that is too hard to sharpen, but I am not only interested in softer high carbons either. I just want it to be reasonably easy for me to freehand back to sharp.

There's a few bedrock types steels in Japanese cutlery. I'd say namely, Aogami (blue), Shirogami (white), Ginsan (silver), and VG10. Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of variation out there if you look around and SG2/R2 is becoming increasingly popular, just that these are some of the most common.

Ginsan can be found clad or mono steel, VG10 ill often be clad, and aogami and shirogami will pretty much always be clad. This cladding can be soft iron but stainless is more common.

The Shirogami family will be very easy to sharpen. It's edge won't last as long as others but I don't find edge retention in the home kitchen all that big of a deal. Provided you're not using a glass, bamboo, etc. cutting "board."

Aogami is not hard to sharpen and holds a keen edge for some time. Aogami Super might be my current favorite carbon steel.

Ginsan is really nice too and sort of a stainless-Shirogami.

Check out this video from Jon:


He also has videos on choosing a knife and an excellent series on sharpening.

Remember, a gyuto is a great all-round knife.

[Scandi Grind]

I don't mean to be a bother, but if you don't mind, could you post the web links to the dealers you listed?

I have a lot of bamboo cutting boards. Are those bad for knife edges? I had always just assumed since they were a wood like material that they would make good cutting surfaces.

I guess this is a little off topic from what I originally posted, but since it's related, you now have me interested in what makes a good cutting board material?

[Eli Chaps]

I don't mean to be a bother, but if you don't mind, could you post the web links to the dealers you listed?

I have a lot of bamboo cutting boards. Are those bad for knife edges? I had always just assumed since they were a wood like material that they would make good cutting surfaces.

I guess this is a little off topic from what I originally posted, but since it's related, you now have me interested in what makes a good cutting board material?

Just copy the vendor names into Google, you'll find them.

Bamboo is not good for knife edges. It's too hard and tight grained. I prefer edge or end grain hardwood. Boos is a common brand.

[Scandi Grind]

I can't use Google for reasons that are hard to explain, that's why I asked.

[JRinFL]

I can't use Google for reasons that are hard to explain, that's why I asked.

https://knivesandstones.us/
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/
https://www.chuboknives.com/
https://www.korin.com/
https://mtckitchen.com/kitchen/

[JRinFL]

Mentioned cutting boards: https://www.johnboos.com/

I’ve never used any of the linked vendors and stand to gain nothing from posting. Only done to help someone out.

[Eli Chaps]

I can't use Google for reasons that are hard to explain, that's why I asked.

https://knivesandstones.us/
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/
https://www.chuboknives.com/
https://www.korin.com/
https://mtckitchen.com/kitchen/

Thank you. I have no affiliation with any of them either.

[Eli Chaps]

I can't use Google for reasons that are hard to explain, that's why I asked.

https://knivesandstones.us/
https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/
https://www.chuboknives.com/
https://www.korin.com/
https://mtckitchen.com/kitchen/

Thank you. I have no affiliation with any of them either.

https://bernalcutlery.com/

https://www.epicedge.com/shopdisplaycat ... uble+Bevel

https://sharpknifeshop.com/

https://carbonknifeco.com/

https://strataportland.com/collections/all

[skeeg11]

A good end grain butcher block or cutting board is one of the nicest things you can do for your kitchen knives.

[Scandi Grind]

Thanks for the links, appreciate it!

[Scandi Grind]

I think maybe the hardest thing for me to decide at this point is how much to spend. I have no interest in collectability or premium aesthetics like exotic handles or damascus steel, it is all about performance for me. I just don't know when spending more money will cease to have a noticeable return on performance.

This is a big investment for me, and I don't want to needlessly overspend, but at the same time, I don't want to spend less then wish I had gotten something better in a year or two. I want this to be something that I can own and appreciate for the rest of my life. I imagine that the more skill you have, the more you would notice finer details in performance of more expensive cutlery, but I'm a very average knife user so that wouldn't be me.

It seems like the knives I am drawn to hover around $150, which I think I can put aside enough to get. If there are things that are comparable for less though, I'd probably lean toward saving money if I can.

It is probably hard to suggest a price range, but what does anyone have to say about what spending more tends to gain you. How much would you spend and why?

[Eli Chaps]

I think maybe the hardest thing for me to decide at this point is how much to spend. I have no interest in collectability or premium aesthetics like exotic handles or damascus steel, it is all about performance for me. I just don't know when spending more money will cease to have a noticeable return on performance.

This is a big investment for me, and I don't want to needlessly overspend, but at the same time, I don't want to spend less then wish I had gotten something better in a year or two. I want this to be something that I can own and appreciate for the rest of my life. I imagine that the more skill you have, the more you would notice finer details in performance of more expensive cutlery, but I'm a very average knife user so that wouldn't be me.

It seems like the knives I am drawn to hover around $150, which I think I can put aside enough to get. If there are things that are comparable for less though, I'd probably lean toward saving money if I can.

It is probably hard to suggest a price range, but what does anyone have to say about what spending more tends to gain you. How much would you spend and why?

You don't have to spend a lot to get good performance. At the lower ends you're really just giving up fit and finish. I'm like you and prefer function over form.

Tsunehisa (aka Harukaze) is a really good brand with good variety in styles and steels and they are well executed. I've owned three and am especially fond of their Ginsan offerings. Kanehide and Sakai Kikumori or a couple others that provide good value.

I know you said you have trouble with searches so here:
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/thre ... -v2.12791/

You can create an account there, start a new thread, paste this in with your answers and you'll get some solid replies. I think you have to do an intro thread first and be cleared by a mod (spam protection). If nothing else, the questions should give you things to think about.

[Scandi Grind]

Cool, thanks.

[Scandi Grind]

Well, I decided on a knife and bought a 165mm Yahiko Ginsan Nashiji Santoku, from Chef Knives To Go.

Sharpest blade out of the box I have ever had! Beautifully thin, it just glides through most food. I used it for all the food prep I did for a big dinner last night and I am very satisfied.

If there was an issue to speak of, it has a strong tendency to stick to food, but this has only been a problem for me when trying to cut an apple. I was happy to find it was not a nuisance when cutting up potatoes to bake. Other that, there seems to be just a bit of run-out on the grind at both the very tip and heel, but I don't foresee it causing an issue as it is very slight and should sharpen out eventually.

The handle could use a bit of fine sanding, which doesn't bug me, then I will have to decide on some sort of finish to use. I might just use Ballistol, or I might get some linseed oil for it. I don't think I want to use varnish, because I want to maintain the wood-like feel, but I could possibly consider a thin coat of oil varnish blend too. We'll see.

I am having so much fun using this thing in the kitchen!