Lil' Temperance 3 Lightweight Video "Reveal"

[apollo]

Lil' Temperance3 S30V & G-10 (Japan) from 2017 was $191.97 I believe and it had nested stainless steel liners.

Was that the street price or the price spyderco website price? I know that perticular knife did not go under the 300 euro range when it was released and you can still now find it for 340 euro.
So that thing was a bloody nightmare!

[RamZar]

Lil' Temperance3 S30V & G-10 (Japan) from 2017 was $191.97 I believe and it had nested stainless steel liners.

Was that the street price or the price spyderco website price? I know that perticular knife did not go under the 300 euro range when it was released and you can still now find it for 340 euro.
So that thing was a bloody nightmare!

$191.97 was the price paid at U.S. dealers in 2017.

[apollo]

Lil' Temperance3 S30V & G-10 (Japan) from 2017 was $191.97 I believe and it had nested stainless steel liners.

Was that the street price or the price spyderco website price? I know that perticular knife did not go under the 300 euro range when it was released and you can still now find it for 340 euro.
So that thing was a bloody nightmare!

$191.97 was the price paid at U.S. dealers in 2017.

I still can not figure out why knives as the pm2 cost not so much more in the EU then in the US and knives like the Lil temperance cost more then a third extra. Anyone has any idea why this happens?

[Manixguy@1994]

Lil' Temperance3 S30V & G-10 (Japan) from 2017 was $191.97 I believe and it had nested stainless steel liners.

Was that the street price or the price spyderco website price? I know that perticular knife did not go under the 300 euro range when it was released and you can still now find it for 340 euro.
So that thing was a bloody nightmare!

$191.97 was the price paid at U.S. dealers in 2017.

I still can not figure out why knives as the pm2 cost not so much more in the EU then in the US and knives like the Lil temperance cost more then a third extra. Anyone has any idea why this happens?

I may be incorrect but my guess it is partly supply and demand . I do not think that the quantities from production of the model is close to what they are for example a Delica / Endura model . Part of it stems from it being a specialized knife and a edc carry . If available a G10 version sells for around $210 which for some a hefty price for a 3 inch blade . I hope the new upcoming model is successful, I have always liked the design . I’m really curious how much it will weigh the G10 model is a solid chunk for its size. Dan

[apollo]

Was that the street price or the price spyderco website price? I know that perticular knife did not go under the 300 euro range when it was released and you can still now find it for 340 euro.
So that thing was a bloody nightmare!

$191.97 was the price paid at U.S. dealers in 2017.

I still can not figure out why knives as the pm2 cost not so much more in the EU then in the US and knives like the Lil temperance cost more then a third extra. Anyone has any idea why this happens?

I may be incorrect but my guess it is partly supply and demand . I do not think that the quantities from production of the model is close to what they are for example a Delica / Endura model . Part of it stems from it being a specialized knife and a edc carry . If available a G10 version sells for around $210 which for some a hefty price for a 3 inch blade . I hope the new upcoming model is successful, I have always liked the design . I’m really curious how much it will weigh the G10 model is a solid chunk for its size. Dan

Thw Dan. That could be i do hope this one will be affordable. I chose my original lil temperance to spend time with today. And it such a wonderfull little blade. I really want the new one when it comes out since i like vg10 and want a real user. For me personally tis is Sal's greatest design.

[BornIn1500]

If available a G10 version sells for around $210

And that was the 2019 price before they discontinued it for 2020. After all the price hikes since 2019, if it was still in production it would probably be $240 or more.

[sal]

Hi Apollo,

Thanx for the compliment on the design.

Our prices are based on our costs. Margins are relatively fixed. Sometimes we lower margins, as in the case of the new Lil' Temperance so we can make them available, but that's not something we can too much.

sal

[RamZar]

The problem with cost is the Japanese folders with steel liners.

Back in 2017 Spyderco released Chinook4 S30V & G-10 (Japan) for a street price of $203.97 which just didn’t sell well at a time when ParaMilitary2 S30V & G-10 (USA) was just $125.97.

The Japanese folders are now best for linerless folders to keep the price reasonable.

[apollo]

Hi Apollo,

Thanx for the compliment on the design.

Our prices are based on our costs. Margins are relatively fixed. Sometimes we lower margins, as in the case of the new Lil' Temperance so we can make them available, but that's not something we can too much.

sal

You’re more then Welcome Sal. The design of the lil Temperance is kind of a everything you need in one pakkage deal. It functions and feels bigger than it is so the term little big knife is the perfect description for it. Sal spyderco’s margins are fine and so are you’re prices i do not see any problems there. But between spyderco and the customer outside the US somtimes strange things happen from time to time that i fear ruin the Sale of a model in country’s.

The former discontinued little temperance is the perfect example for this. The US prices and even the more expensive price from sfo are more then worth it in my eyes. But can you maybe offer some insight why 2 Spydies enter europe at the same time. Each have there msrp/map and one of them gets the extra taxes and profits for local distributors and shops on top that are normal so the price is maybe max 20$ To 30$ more then the maximum price in the US and so since it is a great price for the knife it sells very good like the PM2.

Then the Lil temperance came along and and crossed the Euro border that lil one for some reason gets a way way way bigger price slapt on top of spyderco’s guideline prices ,then the pm2 or others get , i am talking about 1/3th the price extra on top from the spyderco website price. In the lines of a 200/250$ ( US) knife becomes a 325/375$ knife. (EU)
Can you maybe shine a light on how that can happen so for a random knife in the line up? Because looking at prices of the pm2 , manix , native , stretch , Salt lines,… All are great and about the same as in the US so since all of them are fine it feel its strange then sometimes a model pops out of the line like that. Another model that came to mind was the Nirvana i was lucky and bought it with a friend in the us for about 450 euro after import taxes. When it came out here its begin price was 750 euro to 900 euro so somewhere when a random model hits the shores of Europe it feels like someone is picking it out of the product line and thinks on this one i am filling my pockets extra. Or are taxes so difficult that they are bigger or smaller for one model then for the next ?
I know it has nothing to do with Spyderco and i know Spyderco can not do anything about things like that but maybe if we can understand what happens and why, it can make it feel more legit and less shady so we have less trouble paying up the extra cost that those specific models like that have. Because I want to see my extra money go to the factory in golden not some european guy buying an extra ferrari because he found a way to make an extra dollar on the heads of Spydiefans.

[Gsg9]

These guys really hate EU and punish us with pricing as much as they can.

They say price is based on our costs, but as they don't detail the costs this is just a truism.

Same affirmation was thrown for Damasteel Urban: an $94.50 MSRP Urban with some G10 scales and a 4 EUR worth of Damasteel (you can easily cut 2 blades from that 8 EUR hunting knife profile) is sold in US for $280 and in UE for 350-400EUR.



So saying price is based on cost when you have the base model made in the same factory and the materials for the sprint don't add up it doesn't make much sense.

Urbans were made locally in EU Italy with EU steel EU factory EU workforce.

These were sent into US to bill for QC and other arrangements and they come back much more expensive in EU where they've been made than in US, if that makes any sense at all, it does financially for Spyderco.

They are doing the same now with PITS Sprint.

Again made in EU with EU steel EU factory EU workforce, again sent in US to bill for QC and other arrangements and again they are sold back in EU for 367EUR on Lamnia that's $374, 34% more expensive than $280.

So you see how they work around EU made models in order to sell them much more expensive in EU than US.

Regarding Lil'Temp and the story that S30V is expensive and that drives the price up.

From what I can find online a S30V billet can cut 3 Lil Temp blades in it is around $40, that means $13 per blade



Spyderco buying tons of S30V for all the S30V models I'm sure gets better pricing for volumes, say $10 per blade or even less.

I don't know Takefu for how much will sell the equivalent VG10, but if they say it's cheaper then it's cheaper than $10

What's $10-$13 from a $150-200 price that was initially discussed in the video?

Not so much...

So saying that a $10-$13 S30V is expensive and that drives the price up sounds a bit ridiculous.

The fact that you reached the point when even FRN models are expensive doesn't sound good.

Expensive must be 20% MAP Spyderco raised for dealers, old friends in Japan manufacturing prices and Spyderco margins.

As you noticed, some models are picked and sold in EU at unreasonably high prices and it's not just a single EU dealer, it's all of them for around the same pricing, so this is more like a policy for a certain model.

Taxes are not bigger for some models, taxes in EU are based on the $value declared, not on size, scarcity, desirability or
materials.

Still might be interested in one of these if they don't pop up at EUR200 in Europe

[apollo]

I can not blame anyone for hating the EU. I hate it myself the ones in charge are all a bunch of Idiots.
But Politics aside.

Spyderco will have a reason for doing the things they do.
I have no problem with the fact i need to pay more for a spydie then our US friends on this forum.
As long as it is reasonable like the prices are on the mainstream spydies like the pm2/pm3 , Manixes , …
But the ones that fall out of line with absurd prices as you mention and i myself mentioned before is just scary. I mean Like Sal said now about the Lil temperance. If Sales are good enough they give it another color and steel. (And if you put in so much effort in designing the knife like Sal did, i can only think he wants it to sell good) Now we know everyone that likes the model wants to see that happening.

But if history repeats itself with this model then they are definitely losing a big chunk of the sales they could have gotten. Because i do believe that not one dollar of that extra big % of extra pricing that is put on certain models in Europe ever go’s to Spyderco. And in that case if i was Spyderco i would be very mad because even if the EU is not one of spyderco’s biggest markets then still this will go over allot of knives that could be made and sold by them that now never happens due to the price hiccups, so it seems things like that make a big cut in spyderco’s sales to me. Let alone in that case the lil temp will be successful enough to get other colors and steels. Because If the price is going to be normal like the other spyders i can see them selling 500/1000 knives more of the lil temperance in Europe. And i can only guess that is allot of money.

[Cl1ff]

These guys really hate EU and punish us with pricing as much as they can.

They say price is based on our costs, but as they don't detail the costs this is just a truism.

…

Regarding Lil'Temp and the story that S30V is expensive and that drives the price up.

From what I can find online a S30V billet can cut 3 Lil Temp blades in it is around $40, that means $13 per blade



Spyderco buying tons of S30V for all the S30V models I'm sure gets better pricing for volumes, say $10 per blade or even less.

I don't know Takefu for how much will sell the equivalent VG10, but if they say it's cheaper then it's cheaper than $10

What's $10-$13 from a $150-200 price that was initially discussed in the video?

Not so much...

So saying that a $10-$13 S30V is expensive and that drives the price up sounds a bit ridiculous.

The fact that you reached the point when even FRN models are expensive doesn't sound good.

Expensive must be 20% MAP Spyderco raised for dealers, old friends in Japan manufacturing prices and Spyderco margins.

As you noticed, some models are picked and sold in EU at unreasonably high prices and it's not just a single EU dealer, it's all of them for around the same pricing, so this is more like a policy for a certain model.

Taxes are not bigger for some models, taxes in EU are based on the $value declared, not on size, scarcity, desirability or
materials.

Still might be interested in one of these if they don't pop up at EUR200 in Europe

I can’t speak to the pricing situation in Europe, but in regards to s30v driving price up, I think it sounds ridiculous to you because you don’t know anything about what it costs to manufacture knives on a large scale in s30v vs VG10 (nor do I, but I’m certain there’s more to it buying the steel).

[apollo]

These guys really hate EU and punish us with pricing as much as they can.

They say price is based on our costs, but as they don't detail the costs this is just a truism.

…

Regarding Lil'Temp and the story that S30V is expensive and that drives the price up.

From what I can find online a S30V billet can cut 3 Lil Temp blades in it is around $40, that means $13 per blade



Spyderco buying tons of S30V for all the S30V models I'm sure gets better pricing for volumes, say $10 per blade or even less.

I don't know Takefu for how much will sell the equivalent VG10, but if they say it's cheaper then it's cheaper than $10

What's $10-$13 from a $150-200 price that was initially discussed in the video?

Not so much...

So saying that a $10-$13 S30V is expensive and that drives the price up sounds a bit ridiculous.

The fact that you reached the point when even FRN models are expensive doesn't sound good.

Expensive must be 20% MAP Spyderco raised for dealers, old friends in Japan manufacturing prices and Spyderco margins.

As you noticed, some models are picked and sold in EU at unreasonably high prices and it's not just a single EU dealer, it's all of them for around the same pricing, so this is more like a policy for a certain model.

Taxes are not bigger for some models, taxes in EU are based on the $value declared, not on size, scarcity, desirability or
materials.

Still might be interested in one of these if they don't pop up at EUR200 in Europe

I can’t speak to the pricing situation in Europe, but in regards to s30v driving price up, I think it sounds ridiculous to you because you don’t know anything about what it costs to manufacture knives on a large scale in s30v vs VG10 (nor do I, but I’m certain there’s more to it buying the steel).

I think first off, all the shipping s30v needs to do to get in japan is a factor and the willingness of the japanese maker to use that steel is another. So i do believe the vg10 will cut the costs down for the knife but that was not the issue with the cost of the “not well recieved g10 predecessor” we are scared of seeing repeated.

[sal]

Hey Gsg9,

To say that we hate the EU is rather insulting. I'll let it pass because it seems you know little of what you are speaking. Any complicated manufacturing facility cannot be measured by the cost of raw materials. It's naive to think it can be. Turning a $10 piece of steel into a knife is not as simple as it might appear. The million dollar laser that cuts it out or the million dollar grinder that helps form it is part of the cost of manufacturing, as is the cost of trained personnel to run the equipment.

Hi Apollo,

If a model cost $X to produce, we add our margins which are relatively fixed, so the model is sold for $X + Margin. We don't charge as the market will bear as we believe that is "biting the hand that feeds you", though many in business believe that to maximize profit is good business. We do not.

We sell a model to a distributor in the EU, for what is our lowest possible price. This distributor is an independent company. Not part of Spyderco. The cost is $X. The distributor has to pay for shipping the product to them. Then the distributor has to pay for any additional taxes that are required in their country. Then the distributor has to add in their own margins We have no control over the shipping, taxes or their margins.

We make knives with a few makers in Europe, which enables us to make product that we otherwise would not be able to make. We have learned that we have to QC the product in Golden, regardless of where it is made. We've tried to QC in Europe a number of times and the results were not as we'd hoped. Also, setting up a facility to QC in Europe is expensive. Rent, Employees, shipping, taxes, etc. which raises the costs of the piece.

We would like for our European customers to get the best prices possible and we try to help that. We've set up distribution centers in Belgium once and Netherlands twice. The cost was high and the results poor. If anyone has a better solution, I'm listening.

sal

[JRinFL]

It would appear that the European Union is not going to make it easy for US made products to find a successful market in Europe. At least not products that compete directly with well established European firms. A European distributor could step up and work something out with Spyderco if they wished, but they have not. Or it has not worked out.

[skeeg11]

I swear that Sal has the patience of Job.

[apollo]

Hey Gsg9,

Hi Apollo,

If a model cost $X to produce, we add our margins which are relatively fixed, so the model is sold for $X + Margin. We don't charge as the market will bear as we believe that is "biting the hand that feeds you", though many in business believe that to maximize profit is good business. We do not.

We sell a model to a distributor in the EU, for what is our lowest possible price. This distributor is an independent company. Not part of Spyderco. The cost is $X. The distributor has to pay for shipping the product to them. Then the distributor has to pay for any additional taxes that are required in their country. Then the distributor has to add in their own margins We have no control over the shipping, taxes or their margins.

We make knives with a few makers in Europe, which enables us to make product that we otherwise would not be able to make. We have learned that we have to QC the product in Golden, regardless of where it is made. We've tried to QC in Europe a number of times and the results were not as we'd hoped. Also, setting up a facility to QC in Europe is expensive. Rent, Employees, shipping, taxes, etc. which raises the costs of the piece.

We would like for our European customers to get the best prices possible and we try to help that. We've set up distribution centers in Belgium once and Netherlands twice. The cost was high and the results poor. If anyone has a better solution, I'm listening.

sal

Hi Sal.

I’m sorry the topic got heated from my questions. As i mentioned more then once i know it’s the middle stuff/shipping/customs,… that is the problem and definitely not spyderco or the last dealer before it gets to the customer. And again i see no problems with the margins or prices spyderco asks for there knives. And i more then understand spyderco wants to do qc in the US.
Not to talk bad over other brands but i have seen things in knife stores that are made in europe and well let us say for every great one there is also a bad one. So that is all normal for me that situation.

It is great to know all the things spyderco tried to make prices better for us.

But can you enlighten me about Spyderco.nl ? Is this the Dutch division of spyderco ? Or is this maybe adola that somehow gets to use spyderco’s name for sales purposes? Because i know adola is a distributor and was the distributor for spyderco in the past. And in the case it is adola then i think i totally understand thanks to youre reply why Spyderco can not do anything to avoid these strange qwerks some models have in pricing since distributors are as you say free to ask what ever they seem fit in the end.

I hope you can forgive me for the hassle i seemed to have created.
It was not my intend i just want to understand things that sometimes are strange , but nobody here talks about that stuff because most on this forum live in the US so the only thing i can do is ask.
And i just want this knife to be a succes and have the opportunity to add at least one to my collection.
Because looking at the original in my pocket it can only be a great knife to have.

[Evil D]

I swear that Sal has the patience of Job.

I'd be swinging the banhammer like Thor on meth.

[cabfrank]

[sal]

Adola has been our distributor in Netherlands for decades. They are an area exclusive and have our permission to use our name in their distribution. Adola covers Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. They've actually been through 2 owners since we began with them. Good distributors are also challenging to find. The current owner of Adola tries very hard to be good in all areas.

The "Centers" that we set up were Spyderco owned. We kept inventory to be able to ship to distributors faster and less expensively, but the costs were too high and training personnel to QC is harder than it appears. In the end, it did not lower costs to the ELU (End Line User). So you can see that we've been trying to get our products to be more affordable outside of the US. We've not found a path that works.

sal