The "factory edge" discourse

[vivi]

The factory edges are a compromise. They're a balancing act of performance and durability. They're very good for what they are, but they are not the kind of edge I like. I prefer a thinner, coarser edge.

All of our sharpening is done under coolant.

sal

sal, I assume this means even when a knife is sent in for resharpening?

I think that’s done with a Sharp-Maker. That’s how they sharpen knives brought into the SFO, at least.

My Police 4 I recently sent in was sharpened on what appears to be a belt sander then given a microbevel of sorts on a buffing wheel or similar. I had a hand ground edge on it and the grind lines make it obvious it was reground with powered equipment.

[GarageBoy]

Overheated or not, a few of the cut testers have noticed that subsequent edges with the same geometry do better with edge retention than the factory edge

Also it's been noted that issues like the whole s30v reputation for being chippy goes away after a bunch of sharpenings

The factory does as good of a job as it can, but they're also churning out thousands of knives

[TkoK83Spy]

Exactly. If I were the average guy, into a sharp knife out of the box. I'd be more than happy with any Spyderco knife I've had...

This place has just spoiled me with info and tips I've worked on throughout the way. Like many, I think I can finish my knives to my personal desire a bit better than a factory Spyderco. I think most users would prefer a finish more fine than my liking, and that's fine and most likely preferred for the general population. They know what their doing.

[RustyIron]

Here in the 21st Century, we have the ability to control temperatures during machining operations.

Sal says they use coolant during their sharpening processes.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe "burnt knife edges" aren't as big of a problem as the "social influencers" would have us believe.

[Doc Dan]

I wonder how often a burr might be left and it's not a burnt edge at all? Forgive my ignorance. I assumed this was behind the unwarranted accusation that S30V is chippy.

[vivi]

If it isn't over heated steel, which I do not believe to be the case, it leads me to wonder why my own edges show better edge retention than the factory edges?

Here's a thought.

It appears to me they use a two step process. Powered grinding followed by powered buffing.

The grind lines on a factory edge to me look no higher than 200 grit. If that's the case the second step buffing process is removing a lot of the microserrations the 200 grit or less edge would have.

Why does this matter?

In my own experience I get superior edge retention with edges straight off the stone, stropped maybe once or twice per side, than I do with edges that are heavily stropped, say 10+ times per side.

[Matus]

...On the other hand the edge on the Bexar …

Ah man, my local guys are sending out horrible edges? I haven't picked up a knife yet but love their pens and intend on getting a blade. Not trying to derail...

I apparently bought one of the very first ones, the knife had issues (needed new pivot screw), but even if it took a while they took care of that and were super nice. They even said they were changing the design of the srew-heads after my feedback. Kudos to them for that.

End of an off-topic rant.

[sal]

What a bunch of smart knife afi's. Thanx to the OP for the thread. I am going to suggest that there are more variables involved than what might appear. What do you like? What are you cutting? Why did you select "this" edge as opposed to "That" edge. I think that individual experience and preference will play a heavy part.

We give you a good factory edge that will please 90% of the knife using population. You are the other 10%. That's why we're all here. 'Tis a wondrous thing the edge.

sal

[cabfrank]

I could be wrong, again, but I really don't think knives sent in for sharpening service are sharpened by hand with a Sharpmaker. I think that is why we can get them a little sharper than they arrive, by refining with the Sharpmaker.

[tomhosangoutdoors]

Here in the 21st Century, we have the ability to control temperatures during machining operations.

Sal says they use coolant during their sharpening processes.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that maybe "burnt knife edges" aren't as big of a problem as the "social influencers" would have us believe.

While that is true, you gotta think that the apex is the width of a few microns or less. That will heat up extremely fast. Faster than you can tell by just feeling it. Any sort of powered sharpening is going to fatigue the apex to some degree. Coolant lessens that, but it's still there. It has been tested numerous times by Outpost 76 and myself and there is always an increase in edge retention. The amount changes but I can't recall a time there wasn't some sort of increase. We test on cardboard so maybe it varies based on the media you're cuttuing. Don't just take my word for it though. Test it yourself and see what your results are.

[RustyIron]

The grind lines on a factory edge to me look no higher than 200 grit. If that's the case the second step buffing process is removing a lot of the microserrations the 200 grit or less edge would have.

Right? I always examine a new knife under the scope, and try to figure out how/why they did it that way. The factory uses what would seem like a freakishly coarse grind, and then it looks like they go blunter with a finer grit. Spyderco's edge's are nice, but I'm always quick to put my own edge on a new knife, just to see how good I can make it. But it's no mystery that a guy with unlimited time to devote to a knife can create a nicer edge than a factory that has production schedules, profits, and price points to consider.

[bleasure]

This is a great discussion, and I am grateful to Sal for weighing in about his company's process and perspective. There's no question in my mind people can burn their edges, say, dry grinding on idk, forged in fire, but there's also no way I can easily imagine large, reputation-based companies in niche markets being cavalier about it.

The motive behind asking this was not only to test an inclination I had about the trope, but because it has practical consequences to know the knife I recieved IS showing me its steel, right away, up front. It's showing it accurately for the edge it has. So, for instance, the fact that a number of us have experienced chipping and rolling on our magnacut mules with factory edges used in similar ways is more significant than if this was simply a matter of burnt steel syndrome. It says that's legit vs. flawed data, as far as it goes. It doesn't mean any single thing, but it does *mean.* If that kind of empirical feedback is the whole intent of the mule team project, it seems worth knowing it's based on the equivalent of a correctly calibrated instrument.

I am sure I can't hold a candle to the sharpeners here or at the SC factory. Consequently, it only makes sense that the skilled folks posting on the forum consistently experience leaps in performance after sharpening things themselves, how they like, for the uses they put them to. But I feel satisfied knowing the edge I get from the factory is telling (some of) the truth about itself!

(Though for the record, the factory edge on the cruwear para 3 I got was the sharpest I have ever personally seen outside of a scalpel, and I have yet to get it back to the same level of hair splitting sharpness despite some effort. Felt like I'd somehow bought the end of one of Wolverine's claws)

[cabfrank]

Similarly, my Para3 LW factory edge is easily the sharpest knife I have ever had. It is a level of sharpness better than other knives I thought were sharp (talking PE only here). I assume this is close to the level of sharpness some of you good sharpeners here achieve. I am curious to see if I will be able to keep it this way by touching it up on the Sharpmaker when needed.

[vivi]

The grind lines on a factory edge to me look no higher than 200 grit. If that's the case the second step buffing process is removing a lot of the microserrations the 200 grit or less edge would have.

Right? I always examine a new knife under the scope, and try to figure out how/why they did it that way. The factory uses what would seem like a freakishly coarse grind, and then it looks like they go blunter with a finer grit. Spyderco's edge's are nice, but I'm always quick to put my own edge on a new knife, just to see how good I can make it. But it's no mystery that a guy with unlimited time to devote to a knife can create a nicer edge than a factory that has production schedules, profits, and price points to consider.

Yep. The factory edges are better than most, both in terms of raw apex sharpness and factory geometry.

I generally reprofile every knife before I carry it, but the Chief comes ground thin enough I don't feel a need to do it right away.

While I have a type of edge I prefer to the factory edge, I also know I can take a brand new Spyderco out of the box and put it to use immediately. They come very, very sharp.

[Soanso McMasters]

I almost always immediately put my own edge on a knife, but mostly because it’s fun to do. Yes, with my KME and Wicked Edge, I can easily get a better edge, but in all honesty the factory edges are more than good enough for what I need my knives to do. The only exception is one recently that still had a burr on it.

[R100]

[quote=tomhosangoutdoors It has been tested numerous times by Outpost 76 and myself and there is always an increase in edge retention. The amount changes but I can't recall a time there wasn't some sort of increase. We test on cardboard so maybe it varies based on the media you're cuttuing. Don't just take my word for it though. Test it yourself and see what your results are.
[/quote]

I am sure Spyderco have some of the best factory edges in the business but you just can't get past repeatable test results. Like others, I have had factory edges chip unexpectedly and then had no further problems after a good sharpening and reprofiling to a thinner edge, which should be more fragile. I also feel I get better edge retention after a few sharpens. My findings are mere anecdote but when experienced testers get repeatable results sharpening at the factory edge angle we can't really dismiss that. I for one am happy this is the case because a new knife is just the beginning of a long search for the optimum edge. I think Sal is right behind this philosophy.

Dan

[Josh Crutchley]

I've been impressed with all of the Spyderco factory edges I've seen and used except one. It's a Native 5 LW and it has weird steps in the edge bevel on one side. Not sure how it will look after a full sharpening.

[Chuck James]

I find the factory edge on new knives to be at best...unpredictable. Some more sharp than others and the angle of the bevel grind off as much as 2 to 3 degrees per side. My best edge is usually after 3 to 4 sharpenings.

With that said...Spyderco is still a Great Knife!!!

[noeps]

All of our sharpening is done under coolant.

sal

Hi Sal,

Does this include Maniago models?

[Traditional.Sharpening]

All of our sharpening is done under coolant.

sal

That is excellent to hear but I must quantify that. Does this mean only coolant grinding and then 'honing' is done on something like a buffer (common in this industry)?