"Scope The Edge" Ideas and Participants List

[Ramonade]

If we are working on geometry only and the steel is not the subject, the mules could be good contenders. I'm trying to get older models just to grow in numbers and then I'm open to modify them to help testing.
However, a precise swedge needs precise tooling.
Maybe reversed on a fixed angle sharpening system ?
I have a backstand but no jig for bevels yet.

[ZrowsN1s]

Per request Bamboo and Mushroom have been added to the participants list.


.......................................

On the topic of Swedges....

So, how to measure the effect of the Swedge?

We could cut cardboard on top of a digital scale and measure the down force of a mule with a swedge and one without. Not sure how we could measure a knife's ability to turn in a cut as Evil D mentioned.

Besides mules we could test a wide range of blades, measure the geometry, measure the force required and see if we can see any correlation between the geometry and force. Gather as much data as possible and then crunch the numbers.

I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall here.

Ideas anyone?

[Cl1ff]

I’d need more equipment and money, I think, before participating in any serious way, but I’d like to do so at some point.

The only things I could really offer now are suggestions for tests and questions that the participants could help answer through their testing. I could try to put together drafts of these proposed cutting tests to see if they’re feasible, but the actual controlled testing would have to be done by those with the proper equipment and test knives (like a Spy27 Mule).

Basically, I’m just a wannabe “Ghost Hunter” in training.

[ZrowsN1s]

.....
The only things I could really offer now are suggestions for tests and questions that the participants could help answer through their testing. I could try to put together drafts of these proposed cutting tests to see if they’re feasible, but the actual controlled testing would have to be done by those with the proper equipment and test knives (like a Spy27 Mule).
.....

I'm going to add you to the list. I was talking to Bamboo via PM earlier and tried to paraphrase what I thought sal had been getting at in his posts. But I'll post part of it here for everyone to read.

"This really will be a group effort. People can add what ideas they can, test what they can. Everyone isn't expected to run a full scale experiment by themselves. If all you have to contribute is ideas, contribute your ideas! If you can do more that's great too.

-Matt"

If you want to be a part of this, contribute what you can when you can. Even if it's just ideas, testing a single aspect of a larger project, or analyzing the data. Whatever you can. It takes a village. So if you want in, just say so.

[Buddafucco]

Ok... You take a piece of plywood and a jigsaw...
Use the jigsaw and cut a gradually tightening curved "track" into the plywood...
Then you follow the "track" with a knife untill it binds and you mark that spot...
Then you repeat with the same knife with a swedge and if one goes further into the "track" then it has a better turning radius.
And I'm sure there's some mathemagical equation to give exact numbers to go with the turning radius.
And, I just used plywood and a jigsaw to help "paint the picture", they can probably be substituted with other materials or tools.

[sal]

Thanx Buddafucco,

See, it's already going.

It is my belief, that for some reason, we are fortunate to have attracted really fine minds. These minds have attracted more of the same. As Matt said, it's a group effort. We are all teachers and we are all students.

sal

[Evil D]

Per request Bamboo and Mushroom have been added to the participants list.


.......................................

On the topic of Swedges....

So, how to measure the effect of the Swedge?

We could cut cardboard on top of a digital scale and measure the down force of a mule with a swedge and one without. Not sure how we could measure a knife's ability to turn in a cut as Evil D mentioned.

Besides mules we could test a wide range of blades, measure the geometry, measure the force required and see if we can see any correlation between the geometry and force. Gather as much data as possible and then crunch the numbers.

I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall here.

Ideas anyone?

You'd need two of the same blade, one with and one without a swedge. The next and probably most difficult variable to try to control is the quality of the cardboard, and the way that it's being cut. For example if you cut with the blade at 90 degrees to the board, you're facing the highest amount of resistance as the board has a harder time separating around the blade, but if you angle the blade even just a few degrees off center of 90 degrees it allows the two sides of the board to move around the blade easier and greatly reduces drag.

Here's an old video that covers this a bit

https://youtu.be/6Up6q6WiHXs



So, taking all that into consideration, plus figuring out how to measure the force of the cut, and keep it somehow consistent...I dunno.

[ChrisinHove]

What is the question?

How about…

What variation can be seen between knives cutting at point on each blade where the maximum thickness is the same? That way we can look at swedge’d, ffg, hollow ground, sabre ground knives, whatever.

But what elements of performance can we reliably measure? I guess we should only look at relative values if we want to compare results, and only non destructive testing so strength testing is out (!).

[Steeltoez83]

To me push cutting is the style that needs to be used here. And being able to push cut at a 90 degree without an apex feels the most applicable to real world scenarios for knife use. And the apex variables can be overlooked for now. There should be several test medias that are soft and accessible that vary in size, composition, and thickness. And obviously the test cuts need to be measured by force observed on a scale. And enough times to spot a pattern, that becomes repeatable. Then testing out swedges to see where they correlate into the mix after the baseline is established. And since a variety of medias such as soft woods, cardboard, plastics, rubber, carpet, etc the overall picture can be seen. And percentages of improvement by the use of less force, or more force can be calculated. Now for testing with established apexes would require precision sharpening systems, but thats after all the previous testing has been completed. Just my thoughts anyways.

[Wartstein]

Hi Matt.

I am impressed! Great work.

I was hoping that this be a group effort and not one that I have to lead the charge. That's quite a list of interested folks and subjects. 29 on the list. Let's let this sit for a couple of days and see if the list holds. Get thoughts to share.

Also a good list of subjects. I'd like to add one out of the chute; can the advantage of a swedge be measured?

sal

Wish I had the skills, knowledge, experience, equipment and steel selection to participate here too. But I have to be honest to myself: I just don´t, but am grateful that we´ll probably see and learn a lot from what the fine folks on the list come up with!

/ On swedges: Don´t know if "tip - properties" (and not just "edge properties") will be a topic here too: But for me the tip working as such and piercing stuff is when a swedge comes into play most: Actually the tip on my "old" FRN Native is the best combination of "piercy" and stout I ever had on a knife: If the upper part of the sabre hollow grind continued all the way to the tip, it would not penetrate stuff well enough for my liking. But due to the swedge (which thins out the blade in the tip area) it does, while the remaining "mid rip" makes the tip still pretty strong. Best of both worlds somehow.

[ZrowsN1s]

Hi Matt.

I am impressed! Great work.

I was hoping that this be a group effort and not one that I have to lead the charge. That's quite a list of interested folks and subjects. 29 on the list. Let's let this sit for a couple of days and see if the list holds. Get thoughts to share.

Also a good list of subjects. I'd like to add one out of the chute; can the advantage of a swedge be measured?

sal

Wish I had the skills, knowledge, experience, equipment and steel selection to participate here too. But I have to be honest to myself: I just don´t, but am grateful that we´ll probably see and learn a lot from what the fine folks on the list come up with!

/ On swedges: Don´t know if "tip - properties" (and not just "edge properties") will be a topic here too: But for me the tip working as such and piercing stuff is when a swedge comes into play most: Actually the tip on my "old" FRN Native is the best combination of "piercy" and stout I ever had on a knife: If the upper part of the sabre hollow grind continued all the way to the tip, it would not penetrate stuff well enough for my liking. But due to the swedge (which thins out the blade in the tip area) it does, while the remaining "mid rip" makes the tip still pretty strong. Best of both worlds somehow.

My friend you just contributed an idea to the project. I'm sure you have more ideas. Join us.

Scroll up a few posts and read my post on participation. If all you have to contribute is ideas, that's great. If you can do more, also great. No one is expected to do more than they can, really all you need is a desire to be a part of it, and a willingness to voice your ideas.

[Soanso McMasters]

Test the idea that a high toughness/lower edge retention steel can equal/best the edge retention of a low toughness/higher edge retention steel by virtue of a lower dps while still maintaining good edge stability.

Larrin showed that CPM154 (I think) showed improved edge retention simply by virtue of a lower dps. Is it possible that a steel with a lower rating in edge retention can best one with a higher rating if the former’s toughness is sufficient to support a significantly lower dps. What angles would produce this result? What spread between edge retention and toughness in two given steels would produce this result? How long would said performance gain last before the better edge retention steel won out?

Example:

Magnacut @ 11 dps vs S110V @15dps (just made up numbers here)

Magnacut should be able to have better edge stability at a much lower angle than S110V. Is there a point at which its lower dps could then make it outdo S110V at its lowest feasible dps? Does this advantage (should it exist) disappear after crossing a certain threshold of cuts?

ETA- The new Native 5 salt would present the opportunity to compare this with several different steels in the same platform.

[The Meat man]

I'm pretty busy these days but I'd be glad to help out when I can. I have some good sharpening equipment too.

[ZrowsN1s]

The Meat Man has been added to the list and Sonanso's idea has been added to the idea list.

[Bamboo]

Given the recent discussions over magnacut HRC, and Larrin's recent video:

https://youtu.be/a5lzf8LA03o

I wonder if others would also find it beneficial to test edge retention of Larrin's recommended ~62 vs 64-65 rc magnacut, and to see if and how increased hardness affects fine and working edge.

I would personally also be curious in this comparison with other steels too. And perhaps hardness and heat protocol could be used as an extra variable in conjunction with the other tests too.

[ZrowsN1s]

Ok... You take a piece of plywood and a jigsaw...

That's a really good idea!

You'd need two of the same blade, one with and one without a swedge. ........
......So, taking all that into consideration, plus figuring out how to measure the force of the cut, and keep it somehow consistent...I dunno.

To me push cutting is the style that needs to be used here. And being able to push cut at a 90 degree without an apex feels the most applicable to real world scenarios for knife use.....

Great info and Video Evil D. On the cardboard front I was thinking a big company like Amazon probably uses the same brand/type of cardboard for their boxes. If we all use Amazon cardboard for the test we'd be using similar material? We could also measure the thickness with calipers, note if it's single walled double walled etc.

I'm with Steeltoez83 in thinking we should probably measure 90° push cuts on a digital scale of some kind. It seems like that would produce more drag, which is what we are testing. Huh come to think of maybe that's why cutting at a 45 degree angle is easier. Less drag from the cardboad pinching the blade.

......................
I'm not sure how well it would work as I've never tried to do it. But I might be able to grind a swedge onto my SRS13 Mule with my wicked edge sharpener. Could take me a while to do it but it's an option. I could do some before and after testing.

I haven't used it yet, but I recently got a BESS tester. Between that, the laser goniometer, digital calipers, and guided sharpener I could get the edges pretty close to the same between tests. All I need is a digital scale.

Obviously if I did that I'd only be able to do the one test as I would no longer have a mule without a swedge. Would be easier if I had two mules but it might be worth it to see what the numbers are, and to compare it to what others do.

[Evil D]

Great info and Video Evil D. On the cardboard front I was thinking a big company like Amazon probably uses the same brand/type of cardboard for their boxes. If we all use Amazon cardboard for the test we'd be using similar material? We could also measure the thickness with calipers, note if it's single walled double walled etc.

I'm with Steeltoez83 in thinking we should probably measure 90° push cuts on a digital scale of some kind. It seems like that would produce more drag, which is what we are testing. Huh come to think of maybe that's why cutting at a 45 degree angle is easier. Less drag from the cardboad pinching the blade.

......................
I'm not sure how well it would work as I've never tried to do it. But I might be able to grind a swedge onto my SRS13 Mule with my wicked edge sharpener. Could take me a while to do it. But I could do some before and after testing. It's an option.

Amazon probably uses the cheapest craft boxes they can buy, the main thing we would all need to look for is flute size (the tubes in the middle of the board). The most common is C flute which are what most boxes are made of, and then B flute is a smaller size that they probably don't use unless it's a much smaller box. As long as we pay attention to the liner thickness (that's the outer flat sheets) and make sure they don't seem thicker than usual we should be about as even as we can get. Quality control in this industry is so hard to control you wouldn't believe, and cheap boxes are made with the cheapest recycled materials available. Boxes change quality mostly because the buyer is packaging something that requires a stronger box, like for shipping heavy ingredients that can damage the box just from its own weight (this is where heavier liners and double wall come in).


Oh and sticking with 90 degree cuts to the board is a good idea, if for no other reason than to make it easier for us to all be making similar style cuts. I would also suggest cutting across the flutes, this will make a huge difference in our measurements if I'm cutting across and you're cutting with them.


What would be cool is a digital bath scale that records the highest weight, like a BESS tester but I'm not sure they make scales like that. It might be easier to record a video of the scale while making the cut and then play it back in slow motion and watch for the highest weight.

[tomhosangoutdoors]

I'm in to help however I can.

[ZrowsN1s]

I'll add you to the list tomhosangoutdoors!

..........
Maybe we should test on a few different kinds of cardboard being sure to photograph and measure. The most important thing no matter which test medium we are using is the difference between swedge and no swedge. If there's something to that, you figure we would see a difference no matter what medium we use in our individual tests.

I'll look into what kind of scales are easily available. Filming and playing back in slow mo is a good idea too.

Hey Shawn, what kind of scale did you use for your rope test?

[Manifestgtr]

Nice to see this possibly going forward

Definitely still interested