Dear Sal... Seki Slims?

[Eli Chaps]

Sal,

For all the reasons we all already know, you've earned my devotion and as a function over form guy in all my needs, there is no one I respect more. After many trials, I know that, my favorite models are Eric's M2LW and your Seki back lock models. I carried a Delica for years and love the entire Endura family.

But...

Those finger bumps. At least that first one. It just seems to hit my middle finger a touch wrong. On Eric's M2LW, I sand away the handle jimping. On your Seki's, I sand away most of that first nub and I know I am not alone.

Is there any chance, of just seeing a release of one of the Seki Endura-family models in the same curved profile without that first finger nub?

[kennethsime]

Yea. It doesn’t work for me either.



Bought this Delica for a buddy and took the time to play with it before gifting it. I understand that those points have their use, and for folks with smaller hands maybe they’re ok, but man this is why I’ve never bought a Delica.

Oh well. The Stretch is just about the perfect knife for me anyway.

Eli, have you considered a rock jumper?

[vivi]

That's why I hold the Endura / Pacific like this generally.

For the most part the Spydercos designed with those two finger sized handle contours up front work poorly for my hand.

It works for me on the Yojumbo though, because choked up on the handle I still have plenty of space for my thumb:



But on a Delica, I can't use the knife comfortably with my thumb on the ramp due to this. Handle is too short to hold like my pac salt, and the thumb ramp squishes my thumb toouch with my index and middle finger in that first contour.

Thumb ramp comparison between the two pictured knives:



I think Spyderco is moving away from the Endura / Delica 4 handle style if the rock jumper, police 4 and endela are any indication. They're definitely listening to this one.

Normally I think the skinny mod handles look bad and unergonomic, like the skinny paras and shamans.

But I've sanded off all the points on an old beater Endura 4 before, and I found it a lot more ergonomic.

For reference this is how my natural grip looks on a Delica 4:



I'm not sure if a handle mod would make a difference for me on this small of a knife though.

This thread is making me want to try modding one of my many Pacific Salts to remove the points.....

[Doc Dan]

I always sand that bump off on the Endura. If I choke way up on the finger guard the Delica will be alright for a small knife. I think being slimmer helps it. I agree, the whole line would be far better without that bump.

[Wartstein]

For me this is a bit like the "(too) firm lock on the Chaparral" thing.

I really like that firm lock on the Chap as well as I really like the Endura ergos just as they are - WITH that "point" behind the first finger groove, and I have L to XL hands.

It is easy both to make the Chap lock softer as well as to sand away that "point"".
But for those of us who like both as they are: Tough to make the lock "stiffer", and pretty much impossible to ADD that "point on the Endura handle if it wasn't there.

So please leave the Endura handle as it is.
It makes the knife more stable and less likely to "roll" in the hand, and there are a lot of choices without that kind of finger groove out there already for those who don't like it

[Wartstein]

.... I understand that those points have their use, and for folks with smaller hands maybe they’re ok...

Not necessarily.

My hands are really not small (not even for my almost 6 2" frame) and I absolutely love both the Delica and Endura ergos.

Perhaps this has to do with how exactly I tend to hold knives.
Will take pics and show what I mean later.

[aicolainen]

I wear size L gloves, but that's only cause my fingers are quite long. My hands/grip is still quite narrow (probably equivalent to a M/S in that dimension), and I don't see any indication that the Pac salt is made for my size of hand.
It's most comfortable when I grip it far back, like vivi, then all the grooves lines up well with my fingers, but that's just too far from the edge.
In practical use, I cramp up and basically all the bumps gets in conflict with my finger placement.
It's not something I notice much when I'm busy cutting stuff, but I agree it isn't ideal. I guess everything else about the knife make me a little forgiving. It's a beast of a cutting tool in a very light package.

The Delica is much better for me. The first two finger groove is weird, but OK, and every groove/bump behind it lines up nicely.

This topic brings to mind a similar groove/no groove issue from a different genre of tools. It seems the overwhelming consensus over there is that hand anatomy varies widely and grooves will never fit well for more than a slight percentage of users. And the manufacturers seems to be listening. 5 generations of Glock 17, left to right.

[Evil D]

I would also have to grip further back, which just does not work for me because I already hate having my grip far from the edge due to the ricasso so adding another inch of handle in there just compounds that issue.

I have a Gen 3 G19...my fingers sit literally on top of the finger grooves. I haven't shot or carried it since getting a M&P 2.0C.

[pantagana23]

Yea. It doesn’t work for me either.



Bought this Delica for a buddy and took the time to play with it before gifting it. I understand that those points have their use, and for folks with smaller hands maybe they’re ok, but man this is why I’ve never bought a Delica.

Delica has an additional problem compared to Endela and Endura; the finger guard is pushed back on the handle even more, and the handle height is lesser, comparing relatively (this is best compared to Delica 3/Salt 1 handle, as my M/L hand sits normally in Salt 1, but get the hotspot on middle finger on Delica 4)

[Wartstein]

Ok folks, the detailed take on this matter by an L to XL handed guy who absolutely loves both the Endura and Delica ergos (and does not at all wants them to be changed )

(PICS for illustration below the text!)

- First and foremost: WHEN my middle finger hits that "point" behind the first groove, this does not bother me at all.

+ Might be cause right at those finger area(s) I have really fat (protecting?) calluses due to training in the climbing gym and a bit with dumbells
+ And it is a very "stable" feel for me

- BUT: The "point" there only hits my middle finger anyway if I put then thumb on the ramp... and I rarely ever do this, but use other (for me clearly better) grips

+ I find the "thumb on the ramp" grip on ANY Spyderco with a pronounced ramp only useful for light duty tasks.
Normally I use kind of a hammer grip, often times thumb put on the SIDE/FLAT of the blade (about where the thumbhole ist)
+ In a bit harder use (whittling, even cutting cardboard) the "thumb on the ramp" grip does not transfer power well, the knife is less stable in hand cause less of the hand is on contact with the handle, the hand is less well "wrapped around the handle" than it is the case with a hammer grip

- My most used grip on the Endura/Delica is choked up on the Ricasso anyway (great control, close to the edge, very stable, and not uncomfortable at all) - in this grip the point is not "hitting the middle finger" too

- Pic 1 and 2: (click on pics to enlarge)
Knife gripped with thumb on the ramp. Green line; Roughly where the middle finger sits (here: ON that "point")






- Pic 3 and 4
Knife gripped in my usual hammer grip, thumb on the FLAT of the blade






- Pic 4 and 6
My most used grip: Like above, but choked up on the ricasso







Pic 7 and 8:

Above: This is how the knife sits in hand when I´d use my "hammer grip thumb on the flat of the blade".
More hand/handle contact, a lot more stable in hand for me than with the "thumb on the ramp" grip.

Below: This is (exaggerated!) how the knife sits in the hand when I´d put the thumb on the ramp (less contact of the handle with the hand, fingers less well "wrapped around" the handle)

[intrancewetrust]

I think the thumb ramp is a bit too slim and sharp to be used to generate power anyway, it just digs into my thumb that way... seems to be more useful as a grippy bit you can roll your thumb around on to guide the blades edge around for more precise cuts?

[twinboysdad]

That's why I hold the Endura / Pacific like this generally.

For the most part the Spydercos designed with those two finger sized handle contours up front work poorly for my hand.

It works for me on the Yojumbo though, because choked up on the handle I still have plenty of space for my thumb:



But on a Delica, I can't use the knife comfortably with my thumb on the ramp due to this. Handle is too short to hold like my pac salt, and the thumb ramp squishes my thumb toouch with my index and middle finger in that first contour.

Thumb ramp comparison between the two pictured knives:



I think Spyderco is moving away from the Endura / Delica 4 handle style if the rock jumper, police 4 and endela are any indication. They're definitely listening to this one.

Normally I think the skinny mod handles look bad and unergonomic, like the skinny paras and shamans.

But I've sanded off all the points on an old beater Endura 4 before, and I found it a lot more ergonomic.

For reference this is how my natural grip looks on a Delica 4:



I'm not sure if a handle mod would make a difference for me on this small of a knife though.

This thread is making me want to try modding one of my many Pacific Salts to remove the points.....

Your hand holding a D4 looks like me holding a Dfly

[Eli Chaps]

Yea. It doesn’t work for me either.

...

Eli, have you considered a rock jumper?

I have considered one for sure and was excited when Sal first teased the idea. My only concern is that the Stretch 2 didn't work well for me when not using the choil and the RJ looks to have a similar profile.

I just got an Endela and after modding it, I love it. I'm contemplating an RJ next but might actually wait for the talked about Leaf Jumper.

[Wartstein]

...

I have considered one for sure and was excited when Sal first teased the idea. My only concern is that the Stretch 2 didn't work well for me when not using the choil and the RJ looks to have a similar profile.

I just got an Endela and after modding it, I love it. I'm contemplating an RJ next but might actually wait for the talked about Leaf Jumper.

You are literally the first person I ever heard/read saying that the Stretch 2 ergos did actually work not (well) behind the choil. Actually hard to imagione, but of course I believe you!
But if this is the case, I am afraid you could be right and the RJ would not be the best choice for you too. It´s handle is pretty similar to the RJs indeed (and that´s actually why I and I assume 95 % of all knife people like it so much. But it seems to be bad luck for you that your particular hands are not made for that kind of handle (or better: Vice versa of course )

[Eli Chaps]

...

I have considered one for sure and was excited when Sal first teased the idea. My only concern is that the Stretch 2 didn't work well for me when not using the choil and the RJ looks to have a similar profile.

I just got an Endela and after modding it, I love it. I'm contemplating an RJ next but might actually wait for the talked about Leaf Jumper.

You are literally the first person I ever heard/read saying that the Stretch 2 ergos did actually work not (well) behind the choil. Actually hard to imagione, but of course I believe you!
But if this is the case, I am afraid you could be right and the RJ would not be the best choice for you too. It´s handle is pretty similar to the RJs indeed (and that´s actually why I and I assume 95 % of all knife people like it so much. But it seems to be bad luck for you that your particular hands are not made for that kind of handle (or better: Vice versa of course )

I think you will find a lot of folks have issues with some models when not using the choil. In fact it's one of the things many folks say they love about the Manix 2. It is equally comfortable using the choil or not. Outstanding balance and a great design. Most every model of Spyderco I've ever used is crazy comfortable when using the choil but I find that in most practical cutting, I don't use it or want my finger in that spot. This is not a new thing.

I also tend to sometimes use my knives for some harder work and really squeeze down them. That's tough for a lot of pocket knives because they are slim but that's when you find the hot spots.



I've tested many, many Spyderco models and I know what I like and what I don't.

[Wartstein]

...

....
I've tested many, many Spyderco models and I know what I like and what I don't.

Sure, never doubted that you "know what you like and what you don't"!
Since I know both the RJ and the Stretch I just tried to be helpful, my aplogies if this did not come across like this!

/ And I know exactly what you mean: I also use my folders for harder work and "really squeeze them".
Funnily, and I wrote about this several times already:
That's exactly the scenario where for me my Manix LW is a lot less comfortable and more "hotspotty" than the Stretch.
I guess people are different and so are their hands...

[benben]

I wear size L gloves, but that's only cause my fingers are quite long. My hands/grip is still quite narrow (probably equivalent to a M/S in that dimension), and I don't see any indication that the Pac salt is made for my size of hand.
It's most comfortable when I grip it far back, like vivi, then all the grooves lines up well with my fingers, but that's just too far from the edge.
In practical use, I cramp up and basically all the bumps gets in conflict with my finger placement.
It's not something I notice much when I'm busy cutting stuff, but I agree it isn't ideal. I guess everything else about the knife make me a little forgiving. It's a beast of a cutting tool in a very light package.

The Delica is much better for me. The first two finger groove is weird, but OK, and every groove/bump behind it lines up nicely.

This topic brings to mind a similar groove/no groove issue from a different genre of tools. It seems the overwhelming consensus over there is that hand anatomy varies widely and grooves will never fit well for more than a slight percentage of users. And the manufacturers seems to be listening. 5 generations of Glock 17, left to right.

What comes around goes around! The finger grooves on my Gen3 Glocks have never bothered me one bit, but you're right, they've caused years and years of bellyaching!

[Eli Chaps]

....
I've tested many, many Spyderco models and I know what I like and what I don't.

Sure, never doubted that you "know what you like and what you don't"!
Since I know both the RJ and the Stretch I just tried to be helpful, my aplogies if this did not come across like this!

/ And I know exactly what you mean: I also use my folders for harder work and "really squeeze them".
Funnily, and I wrote about this several times already:
That's exactly the scenario where for me my Manix LW is a lot less comfortable and more "hotspotty" than the Stretch.
I guess people are different and so are their hands...

I agree the Manix has its hot spots when baring down. The issue I have with the stretch is the middle hump caused the blade channel to dig into my fingers. Sitting my chair, flicking the blade out and watching TV, it was fine. But when I started working with it the issue arose. I don't know that it was terrible but I already have others that work better for me so my son in law now owns the knife and he likes it.

[Nate]

I’m pretty lucky I guess, since my hand-size seems to be a perfect fit for nearly every Spydie I’ve handled (pretty avg, size large glove,) but the Delica is one I’ve never really warmed up to.

The first two I had were sold without being carried, but I bought a 3rd a couple months ago from clearance at Righttobear. Comparing it to my “Moki Slim” micarta Jess Horns, the old Horns are a much better fit. Really hoped we’d get a full-sized sprint after the gray Baby Horn (which I also love,) but it unfortunately seems like a longshot at this point. The only thing holding the Jess Horns back for me is the right hand only clip, but the rest of the package is so good I can deal with it.

[JRinFL]

When It comes to finger grooves, I have found that one groove for the index finger is the maximum number of grooves needed. the rest just seem to be for style.