All the 20CV I have acquired were recent sprints where the cost was essentially the same as the base model. I haven't used any of them enough that I've had to sharpen them yet, so I can't compare sharpening difficulty.
I did happen across a G10 S30V M2 and got a discount cuz they couldn't find the box. I like it and the factory edge is comparable to my LW 20CV. I picked up the LW 20CV shortly after getting my G10 Hap 40 M@ which I felt was very heavy for my needs. The 20CV was a bonus, as I was primarily interested in the LW aspect, but this sprint happened to drop just when I was in the market. Until I got an Endela, it was my primary.
The only steel I can definitely say is worth the upcharge is K390. Since acquiring my K390 Endela, I rarely use most of my other knives enough that I've needed to sharpen them.
M390 /20Cv provides considerably better corrosion resistance than S30V. When heat treated to HRC62 or higher M390/20CV also provides a considerable and noticeable increase in wear resistance over S30V. Sadly, production companies continue to heat treat M390/20CV knives to around HRC 59-60 and in that range any wear resistance improvement over S30V is nearly impossible to perceive, and the result is a lot of people feeling like they paid too much for the "premium" steel that doesn't seem much different from S30V.
If you were buying a custom M390 knife I'd say it will be far less prone to corrosion than S30V, hold it's edge considerable longer and it won't be very difficult to sharpen. Unfortunately, with production knives my experience has been you'll get better corrosion resistance for the extra $50 and probably won't notice much else.
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i definitely didn't consider the skeletonized liners. i don't care about the difference in overall weight of the knife, but i hadn't considered the balance. i'm guessing the balance of skeletonized liners would be closer to that of the m2lw i'm used to, but i'm not sure it will really matter to me.
as far as the scale color goes, i am drawn to some exclusives based on color, but the steel is the ultimate draw for me because scales can be changed. for this g10 manix, i plan on upgrading the scales to micarta, so color isn't an issue at all.
i also try to keep my collection varied and enjoy trying new things, but it might just be that what i've learned in trying various steels is that i'm content with the properties of s30v. at this point, getting m390 would just be to try it out and have different letters on my blade. i'm guessing, based on the input in this thread that s30v is the way to go for me and my uses. i'm sure m390 is great and is a noticeable upgrade to s30v for some things or some people, but it doesn't sound like it's worth the extra money for me. i'll put that extra money into micarta scales and a metal ball cage.
Uh oh, LB93 is looking at the man behind the curtain! Like most over-hyped steels, you are unlikely to notice a large difference in the two steels. Sure, in lab tests one out performs the other, but in real life with so many more variables in play, you are not going to see big differences.
Personally, the more I learn about M390/20CV/204P the more disappointed I am in having wasted time and money seeking it out.
Same here. There is not much of a difference between S30v and the 20cv/M390/204p trio to justify the extra cost unless it is pretty minimal.
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M390 /20Cv provides considerably better corrosion resistance than S30V. When heat treated to HRC62 or higher M390/20CV also provides a considerable and noticeable increase in wear resistance over S30V. Sadly, production companies continue to heat treat M390/20CV knives to around HRC 59-60 and in that range any wear resistance improvement over S30V is nearly impossible to perceive, and the result is a lot of people feeling like they paid too much for the "premium" steel that doesn't seem much different from S30V.
If you were buying a custom M390 knife I'd say it will be far less prone to corrosion than S30V, hold it's edge considerable longer and it won't be very difficult to sharpen. Unfortunately, with production knives my experience has been you'll get better corrosion resistance for the extra $50 and probably won't notice much else.
Great info Chad, as usual!
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most!
i definitely didn't consider the skeletonized liners. i don't care about the difference in overall weight of the knife, but i hadn't considered the balance. i'm guessing the balance of skeletonized liners would be closer to that of the m2lw i'm used to, but i'm not sure it will really matter to me.
My first Manix was the S30V with the full liners. The weight difference between that one and one with skeletonized liners was a non-issue for me. At the time I thought I only wanted to have lightweight knives. That S30V Manix changed my mind. Clipped in my pocket it didn't really feel any different than anything else to me. In hand it felt really close to one the skeletonized one I had. That S30V knife was also the smoothest Manix I've had yet (I've had 5 G10 M2s now). Only reason I got rid of it is I had too many other knives. Some had to go. I'm getting to that point again
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most!
i like all of my spydercos, but this is one of my favorites. it looks like the next one will be s30v with micarta scales and a brass or copper ball cage.
For well over 4.5 years I used a Spyderco M390 Military model as my main EDC. I have EDCed S30V models in the past and had some minor complaints about that steel. I've actually had better luck with VG-10 than I have with S30V especially in full Spyderedged models. I found that M390 was great with edge retention, corrosion resistance and overall dependable performance. In all of those years I EDCed that Military model with M390 blade steel I didn't have any chipping, corrosion or any other annoying problems.
I did find that M390 in PE is just a bit more difficult to sharpen to my satisfaction but that doesn't bother me because I enjoy sharpening anyway. But a well sharpened M390 blade does have an edge that holds up very well using it in really rough cutting jobs and is not that hard to keep an edge good with regular stropping and honing.
At some point I'm anxious to try out more of those Bohler Uddeholm blade steels. But from what I've heard about Bohler Uddeholm I'm sure I'll be buying more of their stuff down the road at some point. I give M390 a grade of "A minus">> but do keep in mind there aren't many steels I give an "A" grade. Because when it comes using tools to do to hard work with I'm not easy to please.
Unless everyone is sharpening the same blade design to the same profile to perform very similar tasks under the same conditions, you're going to get a myriad of viewpoints. Actually, even then you would get a myriad of viewpoints.
That's why we look at steel charts to consider what characteristics we want to emphasize for our particular circumstance. You have to consider if you want a balanced steel (toughness vs edge holding) or if you want to emphasize a characteristic. Then there is corrosion resistance and what you can handle given your tools and skill level for sharpening. Will you see a difference in the edge holding of M390 over S30V? In all likelihood, yes. You will.
Going by the charts here and if I'm reading them properly: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/20/ ... ery-knife/, M390 is as tough as S35V (S30V's big brother) while having quite a bit better edge holding numbers. If you used say an S30V vs a M390 to cut up a stack of cardboard for recycling and you sharpened them the same, you would see a difference. They would both be as durable but the M390 would hold it's fine edge longer. Academic? Sure. You'll still get your cardboard cut up. But then, why even spend the money on S30V when something like D2 or 9CR18MoV will also get the job done?
I enjoy fancier steel because it's kind of cool how they work. But my kitchen knives are VG10 because they have to work for a living. Depends on how you choose to enjoy the hobby and what you can afford.
i've been wanting a g10 manix for a long time now and it will probably be my next spyderco purchase (unless the spydiechef, ikuchi, or s35vn resilience are stocked before i pull the trigger). i have some questions before i make my purchase though.
first, i'm not interested in anything too exotic, such as maxamet. i don't need super wear-resistant steel that will be overly difficult to sharpen. i prefer corrosion-resistance to wear resistance, so tool steels are generally out for me.
okay, questions:
if cost were not a factor, are m390 or 20cv a worthy upgrade over the standard s30v?
i'm fine maintaining an edge on s30v with my sharpmaker. will m390 or 20cv be much more difficult to sharpen?
now concerning cost, would m390 or 20cv be worth spending ~$50 more over the same knife in s30v? i know that depends on whether or not i really want those steels, but based on what i've said, is it a good idea or bad?
thanks in advance!
Answer to First question is...YES!!!
Answer to Second question....Can't answer because I don't have/use a sharpmaker.
Answer to third question....Yes!!! for $50.00 you are getting a great steel, G10's and steel liners.
Answer to fourth question....No, It's not a good idea. IT'S A GREAT IDEA!!!!
I think Larrin said he does not care for M390 et al. I have a lone Delica in 204P and that is my only experience with it. For some things, the steel does not seem to cut as well. I mean, this knife came sharp enough to cut free hanging toilet paper (there is a picture somewhere on this forum), but cutting a tied plastic grocery bag it seems to want to hang before cutting it cleanly. Whereas, a regular VG-10 Delica that is not as objectively sharp, but still very sharp, will cut through without the slight hang. The 204P will, of course, hold an edge longer. Compare that to S30V, a well balanced steel, that also seems to cut well, and it holds an edge better than VG10, but less long than 204P. I rambled to say that 204P/M390 is good stuff, but I am not sure it is good enough to pay a big premium for.
Have you thought about using the sharp edge instead of the spine!!
I think Larrin said he does not care for M390 et al. I have a lone Delica in 204P and that is my only experience with it. For some things, the steel does not seem to cut as well. I mean, this knife came sharp enough to cut free hanging toilet paper (there is a picture somewhere on this forum), but cutting a tied plastic grocery bag it seems to want to hang before cutting it cleanly. Whereas, a regular VG-10 Delica that is not as objectively sharp, but still very sharp, will cut through without the slight hang. The 204P will, of course, hold an edge longer. Compare that to S30V, a well balanced steel, that also seems to cut well, and it holds an edge better than VG10, but less long than 204P. I rambled to say that 204P/M390 is good stuff, but I am not sure it is good enough to pay a big premium for.
Have you thought about using the sharp edge instead of the spine!!
I never thought of that! No wonder I kept cutting my thumb when opening those bags!
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I have both Manix models and love both. There are really only two differences I’ve encountered in regular use. My particular brown/m390 variant is a little smoother and easier to manipulate. That’s probably just down to the particular individual I received, though. One thing I can say for sure about m390 vs s30v in the same model is that m390 takes a screaming edge. I’ve only sharpened mine a few times and each time, it’s come up cruwear keen…almost unnaturally sharp. Based on my experience, the m390 model is worth the premium. But if it’s not in the cards or you can only find scalpers, the s30v model is just as good in most ways…especially for normal, everyday use.
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The only steel I can definitely say is worth the upcharge is K390.
This 100%.
I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof! (John Adams regarding the White House)
Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)
the stories of s90v being difficult to sharpen make it kind of a no-go for me. i'm not super skilled at sharpening, but i also don't want to carry specialized equipment into the outdoors to maintain my blades. i don't mind carrying a small, medium grit ceramic stone for touching up, but anything more than that and a small strip seems like overkill to me.
k390 keeps calling my name, but i can't bring myself to pay that kind of money for a blade that isn't stainless. maybe for a fixed blade woods knife, but i usually want a steel that easy to sharpen for the outdoors, like 1095. maybe i'll pick up a ladybug in k390 to test it out.
M390 goes to bed every night hoping it will wake up and be S90V.
Honestly, if I want an upgrade over S30V I’m just gonna go for S90V.
I used to be afraid of s90v... Just like I was afraid of 20cv/m390 before I got more sharpening knowledge. S90v is not that difficult to sharpen, as long as you use appropriate equipment (diamonds). It may take a little longer, but it's like any other steel.
As for touching up... Spyderco medium does just fine touching up s90v. I find going past 1200 grit diamond, s90v loses bite and doesn't feel sharp, even though it pops hairs. I think I'm going to stay with 325 grit for s90... Its very sharp, lots of bite. Might try a 220 grit edge with light finishing on the spyderco medium... See how that kind of finish does.
i'm not really afraid of steels that are harder to sharpen. it's more of me not wanting to deal with it and thinking the extra sharpening gear and effort is not worth the extra edge retention for me. i also prefer less brittle steels because i'd rather sharpen out rolls on something easy to sharpen than chips on something hard to sharpen.
i'm not really afraid of steels that are harder to sharpen. it's more of me not wanting to deal with it and thinking the extra sharpening gear and effort is not worth the extra edge retention for me. i also prefer less brittle steels because i'd rather sharpen out rolls on something easy to sharpen than chips on something hard to sharpen.
This is kind of how I think of S110V. I have the equipment and stones to sharpen it but I just don't like dealing with it. S90V is a different story. I can easily touch up S90V with the Spyderco medium stones which is something I can't do with S110V. Last weekend I used my Paysan to cut a lot of cardboard. It was still cutting well afterward but didn't have sticky sharp feeling. A couple minutes on the Sharpmaker easily fixed that
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most!
I never thought of that! No wonder I kept cutting my thumb when opening those bags!
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