It would be really cool if Spyderco could switch from 8Cr13MoV for budget blades to 14C28N

[Rp5]

I get that budget means keep costs down, but the competition is already using better budget steels. Searching online distributors in the $50-$75 space, some of the stronger Chinese competitors offer models in: AR-RPM9, D2, 14C28N, 154CM, 9Cr18MoV, N690, Nitro-V, and VG-10. I looked at 6 companies, none of them use 8Cr13MoV. I think that puts serious pressure on Spyderco to upgrade their steel choice. If that ends up being 9Cr, that's fine, but I agree I'd be more interested in 14C28N.

[Baron Mind]

I think Spyderco could switch to 14c28n if they wanted to. 14c28n is clearly the best all around budget steel, and any price increase would almost surely pale in comparison to the increase in performance we would see.

[Bill1170]

Just swap it for 9cr, like civivi

Civivi's 9cr is pretty amazing. Pete (Cedric and Ada) got a LOT of cuts out of a Praxis after he reprofiled it (something like 200+ on his twisted sisal rope). 90 on the factory edge I believe. The 9cr out cut a LOT of steels people feel are better. I think people look down on any XCR steels because they're chinese, but with good treatment 9cr does very well. I certainly haven't had any problems out of my Civivi blades in 9cr, and it's easy to sharpen, gets really sharp with minimal effort, and stays sharp for a good while. In fact, I just got a Civivi Kepler (fixed blade) in 9cr. It was pretty sharp out of the box, but I gave it a run on a few stones anyway. Took it outside and started cutting on some sticks and that thing will CUT. It's pretty thin behind the edge, but after all the slicing, light chopping, carving, it is still hair shaving sharp. Very impressive. Not a wilderness survival blade by any means, but if it is all I had it would do the job.

I'm confident Sal and the gang could get the heat treat right. Would also keep prices down if they used a domestically available steel as well.

I bought four of the 9Cr18Mo mules when they came out, and it’s a steel with very respectable performance in my testing, especially in light of the price. I recall Sal saying their Chinese maker couldn’t use it because it can’t be punch blanked like 8Cr can.

[araneae]

I think Spyderco could switch to 14c28n if they wanted to. 14c28n is clearly the best all around budget steel, and any price increase would almost surely pale in comparison to the increase in performance we would see.

People seem to forget that the point of the budget line is to be a good knife for a budget price. Spyderco should consider upping their game in the budget steel market as Chinese competitors already have, but 9Cr18 is probably the most cost effective way to do that. Or working to develop a better Chinese domestic steel like CJRB did.

[JacksonKnives]

I think Spyderco could switch to 14c28n if they wanted to. 14c28n is clearly the best all around budget steel, and any price increase would almost surely pale in comparison to the increase in performance we would see.

I think you have an inflated perception of this "performance" increase.
Go look at Pete's (Cedric and Ada...) spreadsheet with high-low ranges for cutting performance by steel. Look at any table of community-gathered hardness tests on $50 knives.
The range across test samples is just as wide for 14c28n as for 8cr13MoV. Edge thickness is certainly part of that effect, but not all of it.

With the furnaces/techniques used on these knives, it may not be possible to cool quickly enough to get past HRC 61 in 14c28n. If you want higher hardness, you may need to go with a steel like 9Cr (aka 440B edit: actually, more like a blend between 8cr and VG-10 in composition) and give up some toughnesswhoops, edit again: here's 'plain' 9cr18.)

Spyderco is juggling many variables with budget knives, and they're not in direct control of very many of them.

[sal]

Thanx Jackson,

I agree. We're looking into a switch to 9Cr now.

sal

[bearfacedkiller]

Upgraded steel in a budget knife seems contradictory. They are made for the average Joe who doesn’t care about much more than price. I see no issue with increasing performance but if it comes with added cost then that defeats the purpose of the knife in the first place.

As far as what other companies are using in Chinese knives, I don’t care. I don’t believe the tang stamp on most of them anyway. You want 14c28n printed on the blade? They can do that for you.

Also agree that China isn’t the only option. If Thailand can build Honda and Kawasaki motorcycles why can’t they build knives? If Ontario and Kabar can make budget knives in Taiwan then why can’t Spyderco.


This was $20 and is aus8 and made in Taiwan. You can get it in D2 for about $30. Quality isn’t bad and I would take it over any Byrd.

[S-3 ranch]

Not a huge fan of 8cr13mov , except it is super easy to bring back to razor and working sharp
I was given a Chinese delica knockoff, it is marked 440c , but is ??? , holds a razor sharp edge for
A super long time, very stainless, and hard steel, I guess my point is Chinese budget steel is a box of chocolate ( don’t know what you’re getting in quality) ! I understand bohler has set up shop to “”help “” the knife manufacturers in China with heat treatment ( bohler China), wonder what this “ firebyrde) “ delica really is, it’s better steel then my BD1 and bd1n, and more stainless then some D2 I have , it’s baffling and makes me wonder what’s happening in China
Switching to a aus8 level steel wouldn’t make me excited :confused:

The knife steel data base app (https://apps.apple.com/us/app/knife-ste ... d498892262 )really helps explain the alphabet soup steel names that the manufacturer use
To confuse the consumer :o

[skeeg11]

I have a lot of faith in Sal's standards whether it be heat treat or precision of fit.

[soc_monki]

Just swap it for 9cr, like civivi

Civivi's 9cr is pretty amazing. Pete (Cedric and Ada) got a LOT of cuts out of a Praxis after he reprofiled it (something like 200+ on his twisted sisal rope). 90 on the factory edge I believe. The 9cr out cut a LOT of steels people feel are better. I think people look down on any XCR steels because they're chinese, but with good treatment 9cr does very well. I certainly haven't had any problems out of my Civivi blades in 9cr, and it's easy to sharpen, gets really sharp with minimal effort, and stays sharp for a good while. In fact, I just got a Civivi Kepler (fixed blade) in 9cr. It was pretty sharp out of the box, but I gave it a run on a few stones anyway. Took it outside and started cutting on some sticks and that thing will CUT. It's pretty thin behind the edge, but after all the slicing, light chopping, carving, it is still hair shaving sharp. Very impressive. Not a wilderness survival blade by any means, but if it is all I had it would do the job.

I'm confident Sal and the gang could get the heat treat right. Would also keep prices down if they used a domestically available steel as well.

I bought four of the 9Cr18Mo mules when they came out, and it’s a steel with very respectable performance in my testing, especially in light of the price. I recall Sal saying their Chinese maker couldn’t use it because it can’t be punch blanked like 8Cr can.

Well that's disappointing. But Sal said they're looking into switching to 9cr, so there is hope!

As for what bearfacedkiller said, certain companies do lie about the steel, and they usually get found out. Companies like We/Civivi, Reate, and a few others have been proven to tell the truth of what steels they use.

I trust Sal to make a wise decision.

[S-3 ranch]

Just swap it for 9cr, like civivi

Civivi's 9cr is pretty amazing. Pete (Cedric and Ada) got a LOT of cuts out of a Praxis after he reprofiled it (something like 200+ on his twisted sisal rope). 90 on the factory edge I believe. The 9cr out cut a LOT of steels people feel are better. I think people look down on any XCR steels because they're chinese, but with good treatment 9cr does very well. I certainly haven't had any problems out of my Civivi blades in 9cr, and it's easy to sharpen, gets really sharp with minimal effort, and stays sharp for a good while. In fact, I just got a Civivi Kepler (fixed blade) in 9cr. It was pretty sharp out of the box, but I gave it a run on a few stones anyway. Took it outside and started cutting on some sticks and that thing will CUT. It's pretty thin behind the edge, but after all the slicing, light chopping, carving, it is still hair shaving sharp. Very impressive. Not a wilderness survival blade by any means, but if it is all I had it would do the job.

I'm confident Sal and the gang could get the heat treat right. Would also keep prices down if they used a domestically available steel as well.

I bought four of the 9Cr18Mo mules when they came out, and it’s a steel with very respectable performance in my testing, especially in light of the price. I recall Sal saying their Chinese maker couldn’t use it because it can’t be punch blanked like 8Cr can.

Well that's disappointing. But Sal said they're looking into switching to 9cr, so there is hope!

As for what bearfacedkiller said, certain companies do lie about the steel, and they usually get found out. Companies like We/Civivi, Reate, and a few others have been proven to tell the truth of what steels they use.

I trust Sal to make a wise decision.

Which 9cr .?
Seems like there’s a couple

[Gtscotty]

Civivi's 9cr is pretty amazing. Pete (Cedric and Ada) got a LOT of cuts out of a Praxis after he reprofiled it (something like 200+ on his twisted sisal rope). 90 on the factory edge I believe. The 9cr out cut a LOT of steels people feel are better. I think people look down on any XCR steels because they're chinese, but with good treatment 9cr does very well. I certainly haven't had any problems out of my Civivi blades in 9cr, and it's easy to sharpen, gets really sharp with minimal effort, and stays sharp for a good while. In fact, I just got a Civivi Kepler (fixed blade) in 9cr. It was pretty sharp out of the box, but I gave it a run on a few stones anyway. Took it outside and started cutting on some sticks and that thing will CUT. It's pretty thin behind the edge, but after all the slicing, light chopping, carving, it is still hair shaving sharp. Very impressive. Not a wilderness survival blade by any means, but if it is all I had it would do the job.

I'm confident Sal and the gang could get the heat treat right. Would also keep prices down if they used a domestically available steel as well.

I bought four of the 9Cr18Mo mules when they came out, and it’s a steel with very respectable performance in my testing, especially in light of the price. I recall Sal saying their Chinese maker couldn’t use it because it can’t be punch blanked like 8Cr can.

Well that's disappointing. But Sal said they're looking into switching to 9cr, so there is hope!

As for what bearfacedkiller said, certain companies do lie about the steel, and they usually get found out. Companies like We/Civivi, Reate, and a few others have been proven to tell the truth of what steels they use.

I trust Sal to make a wise decision.

Which 9cr .?
Seems like there’s a couple

9Cr18MoV is what Civivi has used to good effect, what Mule Team 5 was, and I think what most folks mean when they say 9Cr.

JacksonKnives had 9Cr13CoMoV in his comparison link, which is a different animal.

[RamZar]

Civivi uses a variety of steels with Nitro-V being the latest. The number in parentheses indicates the number of Civivi models with that steel.



At the lowest price end they used to use 8Cr14MoV but have since moved to 9Cr18MoV.

[S-3 ranch]

I bought four of the 9Cr18Mo mules when they came out, and it’s a steel with very respectable performance in my testing, especially in light of the price. I recall Sal saying their Chinese maker couldn’t use it because it can’t be punch blanked like 8Cr can.

Well that's disappointing. But Sal said they're looking into switching to 9cr, so there is hope!

As for what bearfacedkiller said, certain companies do lie about the steel, and they usually get found out. Companies like We/Civivi, Reate, and a few others have been proven to tell the truth of what steels they use.

I trust Sal to make a wise decision.

Which 9cr .?
Seems like there’s a couple

9Cr18MoV is what Civivi has used to good effect, what Mule Team 5 was, and I think what most folks mean when they say 9Cr.

JacksonKnives had 9Cr13CoMoV in his comparison link, which is a different animal.

9Cr16MoV is close to 440c :)
9Cr18MoV Is =440B but with marginally better grain structure
9Cr12Mo1V1 =D2 :) :)
9Cr13CoMoV = Aus-8a
Nitro V = AEB-L :) :) :)

These Chinese alphabet soup steels can get confusing till I looked at the charts

[RamZar]

Nitro-V was created by NJ Steel Baron not China. NJSB “optimized the best qualities of AEB-L by enriching the formula using Nitrogen and Vanadium to create a new ferroalloy that provides exceptional edge performance, high hardness, and extreme corrosion resistance especially in marine and wet environments.”

[chronovore]

...
9Cr18MoV Is =440B but with marginally better grain structure ...
These Chinese alphabet soup steels can get confusing till I looked at the charts

Which charts are you looking at? RamZar addressed Nitro V versus AEB-L but the relationship is more complicated. It's worth checking out Larrin's charts and discussion at Knife Steel Nerds.

I've seen a few people claiming that 9Cr18Mov = 440B lately. The carbon content is similar but they are different steels. Overall, 9Cr18Mov is a little better. Edge retention is a little better in practice. Corrosion resistance is a little better in theory. (I've never had either rust.) That's assuming average knives where it gets an average heat treatment. The thing about Civivi is that they do a fantastic heat treatment on their 9Cr18Mov.

... At the lowest price end they used to use 8Cr14MoV but have since moved to 9Cr18MoV.

This is not correct. Civivi actually started with 9Cr18Mov. Their initial offerings included the Baklash, Praxis, and Naja at $42. The ten knives in 8Cr14Mov are all just different versions of the Fracture. The Fracture was introduced later as a reach down into the sub-$30 market.

Anyway, I'm very excited to see that Sal is exploring 9Cr18Mov. Even with a middle-of-the road heat treatment, it would be a nice step up from 8Cr13Mov. At current pricing, a knife like the Tenacious is dismally overpriced in 8Cr13Mov but would be much more reasonable in 9Cr18Mov. A slight price increase might be okay. The only concern with a higher price tag is how close the competition is with VG-10 and N690.

[RamZar]

... At the lowest price end they used to use 8Cr14MoV but have since moved to 9Cr18MoV.

This is not correct. Civivi actually started with 9Cr18Mov. Their initial offerings included the Baklash, Praxis, and Naja at $42. The ten knives in 8Cr14Mov are all just different versions of the Fracture. The Fracture was introduced later as a reach down into the sub-$30 market.

You’re probably more familiar with Civivi than I am. Right now, Civivi has knives in the $40-$99 street price range. At the lowest end it’s 9Cr18MoV, then D2 and at the top Damascus with CF. Their latest have Nitro-V a notch below Damascus. Handle materials are mostly G-10 with some Micarta and CF. I don’t have any Civivi but will get a couple of the Nitro-V models: Nox & Bo.

[Lucabrasi]

I recently got the Riffle. That is ground insanely thin and man does 14c28n hold up. Pared back a wildly overgrown bush with it and it didn’t even need to be stripped after. I did, because I’m obsessive, but it didn’t need it. I don’t know what the Rockwell testers would find but it sharpens up like it is treated very hard, and is very stable even at a thin edge. I wish it became the new universal steel under 80 dollars or so.

[Paraguy]

Yes.

[zhyla]

If anything, Spyderco needs to figure out how to lower costs on the Spyderco budget line, not raise them. The Persistance is $50. Compare to Civivi’s Elementum model - D2 steel in a range of colors. Lots of other models at that price (****, the Wyvern just caught my eye…).

And much as I love the Tenacious line, to the average consumer they are fantastically clunky knives. Most people are not going to choose an Ambitious or Persistance when shopping for a small knife.

I’m sure Spyderco knows what they’re doing as a business. But it feels to me like there needs to be a budget version of the Delica at $50.