FRN Take Over...

[sal]

Hi Chuck James,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[ladybug93]

my pacific salt is definitely more comfortable iwb than my native salt. however, if i hadn't had both to compare, i wouldn't have given it a second thought when i clipped my native iwb. the other day i carried my caribbean iwb and it was more comfortable than the native, but it was also heavier, so it was more noticeable too. i guess what i'm trying to say is the pacific salt is king iwb, but it's not really an issue to carry the blockiest frn folder or even a heavy g10 knife iwb.

Funny, I’d been talking about UKPKs but this is my iwb boardshorts carry today:



Pacific, meet the Atlantic... :D

The other non-kitchen knives I brought with me to OBX are an frn UKPK and the Manbug Salt that lives on my keys.

Eta: On weight, I’d agree it’s mostly not an issue, but more noticeable for sure and at least for me can lead to noteable saggage of the shorts lol.

i'm only a couple of hours away from there. i haven't visited yet because i just moved here in the height of covid last summer. maybe we'll make it down there this year.

that pacific salt is the knife that brought me back to spyderco a few years ago when i moved to hawaii. it's probably mad at me for carrying my caribbean to the pool the other day because it's been neglected a little since the caribbean came into the picture. like i said though, the pac salt is still king iwb as far as i'm concerned.

[Nate]

i'm only a couple of hours away from there. i haven't visited yet because i just moved here in the height of covid last summer. maybe we'll make it down there this year.

that pacific salt is the knife that brought me back to spyderco a few years ago when i moved to hawaii. it's probably mad at me for carrying my caribbean to the pool the other day because it's been neglected a little since the caribbean came into the picture. like i said though, the pac salt is still king iwb as far as i'm concerned.

Didn’t jump on the Pac Salt 1 until they were disco’d and supplies were dwindling, but really glad I bought the one pictured as well as a yellow one in satin SE. So slim and light, with really well rounded corners, and rust-proof to boot. Have to agree they’re very well-suited for iwb carry. For 51 weeks out of the year I’m nowhere near salt water though and my lw urbans and UKPKs also get tons of iwb carry.

Got to handle Evil D’s Caribbean a few weeks ago. I can see why it’s popular, but it’s a no-go for me as a lefty. Think I’d either have to always close it right handed, or with two hands for safety. Can’t let that one drop on your finger like a back lock... :eek:

[Evil D]

Spyderhawk on the left, Native 5 on the right.







:confused:



Could I do that with sandpaper on the Native 5? Probably. Should I have to? Absolutely not.

[vivi]

With FRN the squared off edges don't make sense to me. It doesn't save on production costs like with G10 as far as I know.

[Evil D]

With FRN the squared off edges don't make sense to me. It doesn't save on production costs like with G10 as far as I know.

If they chime in and say yes, rounded edges cost more money in mold production, knives would cost X amount more of we did that...then ok I get it. It seems more like a deliberate design choice.

[JRinFL]

I'm pretty sure it is part of their design language for Golden made FRN knives.

[notfixingit]

I think I recently saw in interview with someone from spyderco and maybe knivecenter? (Could be wrong) how FRN has a faster production rate. Personally though I think the FRN makes the knife look/feel cheap (Manix 2, enuff scales, etc), granted I don't mind it on my Assist Salt or Para 3 LW but if I had to pick, an FRN knife would never be my go to as I seem to get gunk stuck in them to often, but I get that some like it. What would be nice is have the option to order G10 scales at least to replace FRN on each knife.

[Michael Janich]

Dear notfixingit:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

The properties of G-10 and FRN are very different. For knives that have full stainless steel liners, it's not an issue. For knives that are purpose-designed around lightweight handles--like the Para 3 Lightweight--it's much more complicated than simply offering G-10 replacement scales for the FRN handles. Even if G-10 was machined to replicate the detail of an injection-molded part, it's layered construction wouldn't handle the stresses in the same way.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Wartstein]

Well, more FRN for me personally has actually only advantages... imho best handle material there is (ok, Micarta is nice too... )

I think at least as strong as G10, a bit lighter, usually more contoured and chamfered, grippier (bidirectional texturing) but in my experience still less of a pocket shredder (since the clip lands on the smooth logo), makes folders more affordable, easier to dye, for me more harmonic, less blocky looks... I won't complain at all if Spyderco makes more FRN- and less G10 folders...

As a point of clarity, the bolded portion is incorrect per material data from Matweb for Nylon 6/6 30% and a material cut sheet for G-10 epoxy fiberglass composite from Laminated Plastics.

Nylon 6/6 30% is a common FRN, and on the very top end of a wide range, has significantly less tensile strength (29 ksi) than G-10 (38ksi crosswise, 45ksi lengthwise). Of course design matters as well as material strength, but having both types of designs, I don't see any real strength advantage for the FRN designs.

....

I believe you, it is just my impression that G10 and FRN are similarly "strong", but of course I never tested that out! In real life use both are more than strong enough imho, though I have a feeling that G10 might rather "chip" while FRN rather "dent" in reaction to a hard impact?! Just a guess again!

/ But: Have you read the latest comment of Michael Janich in this thread? (Quote): " Even if G-10 was machined to replicate the detail of an injection-molded part, it's layered construction wouldn't handle the stresses in the same way." (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=89908&start=80#p1532157)

Of course "would not handle stress in the same way" does not necessarily mean that "G10 is weaker".
It also does not mean that G10 as a material is weaker than FRN, but maybe just in the way both are done as handle material?
Anyway, interesting!

[Michael Janich]

Hey, Wartstein:

G-10 is basically a fiberglass/epoxy laminate--many layers of fiberglass soaked in epoxy and then cured under high pressure. When you machine it--especially with fine details, right-angle pockets, etc.--you create weak points where the G-10 can delaminate. FRN molded into the same shape as a homogenous piece does not have this same challenge. It's not just the overall strength of the material, but the shape of the part that counts.

One often overlooked advantage of FRN is that it also offers better grip texture than peel-ply G-10 and that texture can be fine-tuned to be directional, which reduces both drag during the draw and wear and tear on pockets.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Wartstein]

Hey, Wartstein:

G-10 is basically a fiberglass/epoxy laminate--many layers of fiberglass soaked in epoxy and then cured under high pressure. When you machine it--especially with fine details, right-angle pockets, etc.--you create weak points where the G-10 can delaminate. FRN molded into the same shape as a homogenous piece does not have this same challenge. It's not just the overall strength of the material, but the shape of the part that counts.

One often overlooked advantage of FRN is that it also offers better grip texture than peel-ply G-10 and that texture can be fine-tuned to be directional, which reduces both drag during the draw and wear and tear on pockets.

Stay safe,

Mike

Thanks Michael, this is really interesting and actually a completely new point of view for me!
Could also explain what I assumed in my previous post: That G10 rather seems to "chip", while FRN rather seems to "dent" when lets say dropped from very high...

[ladybug93]

One often overlooked advantage of FRN is that it also offers better grip texture than peel-ply G-10 and that texture can be fine-tuned to be directional, which reduces both drag during the draw and wear and tear on pockets.

this is more true of spyderco frn than any other company's frn (or equivalent) that i've tried. most don't make the effort to design real grip into their frn and the ones that do tend to go way to far. spyderco has the most thoughtful texturing design by far. personally, i think it's visually unattractive, but i find the beauty in the design and utility more than makes up for that.

[James Y]

TBH, due to its commonality, it's easy to take FRN for granted. In reality, it's amazing stuff. Light (but can be made to be heavier), strong, durable, easy to shape, weather and chemical-resistant, and less expensive than other handle materials.

I remember when it used to be called Zytel. I'm not sure why the name change came about, unless it had to do with licensing use of that name by DuPont.

Jim

[Bill1170]

Like Mr Janich explained, the construction of G-10 in layers leaves it open to modes of failure that FRN isn’t as susceptible to. The isotropic nature of FRN comes from the randomized direction of the reinforcing glass fibers. In that regard it behaves under stress similarly to metals, whereas G-10 behaves under stress similarly to plywood.

[sal]

Hi james Y,

MAny moons ago, we realized that Zytel was a Trademarked name bu Dupont. We were using a different brand with way more glass in it. So we coined "Fiberglass reinforced Nylon - FRN" to be proper.

sal

[samdasnake]

Hey, Wartstein:

G-10 is basically a fiberglass/epoxy laminate--many layers of fiberglass soaked in epoxy and then cured under high pressure. When you machine it--especially with fine details, right-angle pockets, etc.--you create weak points where the G-10 can delaminate. FRN molded into the same shape as a homogenous piece does not have this same challenge. It's not just the overall strength of the material, but the shape of the part that counts.

One often overlooked advantage of FRN is that it also offers better grip texture than peel-ply G-10 and that texture can be fine-tuned to be directional, which reduces both drag during the draw and wear and tear on pockets.

Stay safe,

Mike

Drag on draw and wear & tear on pockets is the primary reason I avoid textured G10 in my EDC rotation. I really appreciate the thought Spyderco puts into its FRN molding to ensure the clip hits on a smooth surface.

Just curious though - why not sand down a portion of the G10 to provide smoother draw and less pocket wear? I do that frequently myself, but why does Spyderco not make that mod a part of production for G10?

[Notsurewhy]

Hey, Wartstein:

G-10 is basically a fiberglass/epoxy laminate--many layers of fiberglass soaked in epoxy and then cured under high pressure. When you machine it--especially with fine details, right-angle pockets, etc.--you create weak points where the G-10 can delaminate. FRN molded into the same shape as a homogenous piece does not have this same challenge. It's not just the overall strength of the material, but the shape of the part that counts.

One often overlooked advantage of FRN is that it also offers better grip texture than peel-ply G-10 and that texture can be fine-tuned to be directional, which reduces both drag during the draw and wear and tear on pockets.

Stay safe,

Mike

Drag on draw and wear & tear on pockets is the primary reason I avoid textured G10 in my EDC rotation. I really appreciate the thought Spyderco puts into its FRN molding to ensure the clip hits on a smooth surface.

Just curious though - why not sand down a portion of the G10 to provide smoother draw and less pocket wear? I do that frequently myself, but why does Spyderco not make that mod a part of production for G10?

Some g10 models do. The hundred pacer and Lil temperance 3 spring to mind.

As to why not, I'm guessing machining costs and/or looks.

[James Y]

Hi james Y,

MAny moons ago, we realized that Zytel was a Trademarked name bu Dupont. We were using a different brand with way more glass in it. So we coined "Fiberglass reinforced Nylon - FRN" to be proper.

sal

Thanks for the explanation, Sal!

Jim

[nerdlock]

I'm pretty sure it is part of their design language for Golden made FRN knives.

The Para 3 LW has comfortable contouring around the edges compared to other Golden FRN/FRCP like the Native and Manix LW with their blocky edges...